When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

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firehawk11
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When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by firehawk11 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:34 pm

So after many, many days and weeks of playing I dcame to notice one of two things. Why does my Evoker have Evoker class when all he is doing is casting Ai rpressure? Where did we go to get Sear the promoted spell ina position where Fir is better, heck even Air Pressure if better but what I am saying is the scaling for all Mage and Evoker spells are off.

Examples:

Fir - Highest scaling Spell at 140% Fire ATK and 100% Weapon scaling.
Granting Fire is super heavily resisted but that can be over come with items but it does not help where when Enchanted by fire you turn Fir into a fireball of death.

Air Pressure - Sure the scaling is not as good as Fir but it has the range that I am looking for in a AoE spell unlike Sear. Or any of the AoE burst spells which target up to 3 spaces around you

I do not see the purpose for Evoker when Mage has everything I need to survive.I do hope that this could help in oen way or another to set Evokers back to being a promoted class worth their salt.

My thoughts for AoE Burst spells, we should be able to spend more FP to make the area bigger, actually we should be able to do that to all none single target spells. Sear would benefit from this, Retificer would, The Earth spells.

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EenKogNeeto
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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by EenKogNeeto » Fri May 17, 2019 8:02 pm

Believe it or not, Evokers actually shine when evoking big spells. Either through their high scaling and using them on their own, or with a big wombo combo after Charge Mind which basically turns anything into an evoke in theory.

Fir may beat out Sear in terms of single cast damage, though I'm not sure on that - Its charge mind compatible. Which can make it do up to 700 damage on the basic hit while applying cinder tiles that can do up to 200 damage each if not more.

I have seen entire teams decimated because they underestimated the power of a Charge Mind Sear, or let a wind mage hit them with Vydels like 440% scaling + knockdown, or just didn't fucking nuke the Isenshi guy fast enough to avoid getting team-wiped.

Evoker is a very powerful class, you just have to use its mechanics for it to shine.


Gigas Rex takes 1637 Wind magical damage. (Vydel / Scorching Winds)

The lightning deals a critical blow!
Jammer takes 1671 Lightning magical damage. (Overload / Frayed Magic)
The lightning deals a critical blow!
Prinny takes 1345 Lightning magical damage. (Ryemei / Frayed Magic)
The lightning deals a critical blow!
Big Bad Wolf takes 1859 Lightning magical damage. (Overload / Frayed Magic)


Jammer takes 690 Fire magical damage. (Sear / Hellfire Whip)

Gigas Rex takes 124 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)
Gigas Rex takes 170 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)
Gigas Rex takes 170 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)
Gigas Rex takes 170 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)
Gigas Rex takes 170 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)
Gigas Rex takes 170 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)
Gigas Rex takes 124 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)
Gigas Rex takes 174 Fire magical damage. (Exgalfa / Hellfire Whip)

Im sure someone else can supply examples of Intensify Cold deleting things with prep time, or Isenshi, I mostly use the more unpopular ones.

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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by PantherPrincess » Fri May 17, 2019 9:18 pm

You can't nuke someone with a Fir. You can utterly destroy a whole team of mobs (or players) with just one Charge Mind and Isenshi. Evoker is hardly lacking compared to its predecessor. I honestly don't know if any of your points are thought out and valid because there are spells that have extremely high reach. I.E. Vydel. I think what you're noticing is that generally Mage has better AoE spells which is fine. Imagine if everyone could Charge Mind + Explosion. The purpose of Evoker is so your magical damage can turn into burst damage quite simply.
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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by Spoops » Fri May 17, 2019 9:53 pm

Evoker has some issues right now, that much is undeniable, its not in an awful spot but its not in a great spot either since invocations are hard to simply pull off if they're not just global range.

A good example of Evoker's current issues (intended or not intended) would be listed in Kameron's thread he wrote up on it. (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6857)

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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by EenKogNeeto » Sat May 18, 2019 3:15 pm

Spoops wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:53 pm
Evoker has some issues right now, that much is undeniable, its not in an awful spot but its not in a great spot either since invocations are hard to simply pull off if they're not just global range.

A good example of Evoker's current issues (intended or not intended) would be listed in Kameron's thread he wrote up on it. (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6857)
You don't need to play the devil's advocate in every single thread, some things are genuinely fine or a bad idea. Evoker doesn't need buffed, it's in a very strong position right now with clear strengths and weaknesses to play around. I've seen plenty of people make evoker work in both PVE and PVP and done it myself just fine, even with meme builds that only have 400 or even 200 max hp I've managed to surprise people or clear BDPs.

Completely retooling entire passives that already work is dumb (In regards to that linked thread) but so is adding more damage to already overstacked damage. See post above. Silence /is/ the counter. Its supposed to hinder you. It disables your big dick spells but doesn't prevent you using CM or HSDW or Basic Spells instead. With CEL you can guarantee an invoke on anyone with skip, with thunderhooves or as a dullahan you can too. An evoker playing well in PVP is a nightmare. Especially a wind or earth mage due to the sheer range of their spells. Thankfully the new ghost meta has caused a dip in the earth mage meta.

IMO Evoker plays as it should play. It forces the enemy team to go 'oh shit I need to stop that/prevent that' and makes the evokes really feel like a big deal. Practice more and you'll probably feel the same way.
Inb4: I've played 900000000 hours of evoker ill have you know
90000 hours doesn't mean shit if it's not current and active. Stuff like Relent Gale giving you disengagement options for 1m is very useful. Or Static Charge giving you a Excel Charge for 1m. You know what costs 1m? Making your spells ignore evasion completely with a excel tome.

For reference before linking threads suggesting a flat 40% damage buff and +300 hit to evokers in the future consider:
Resist! Purple-Haired OOC takes 925 Lightning magical damage. (Overload / Frayed Magic) vs my doomwall with 43% lightning res and (edit: over) 50% magres
Inb4: But it was about NON evoke spells!
See above.

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ValkyrieSkies
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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by ValkyrieSkies » Sat May 18, 2019 4:20 pm

Evoker is a fine and solid class with good passives, good damage, and a very strong foundation of spells. The only criticism I have is that it could do with more invocations.

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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by Miller » Sat May 18, 2019 4:33 pm

Evoker does have it's fair share of problems that mostly pertain to their spells outside of invocations. I feel like the class is in a decent spot; but frankly it does need a lot more flavor compared to other mage classes though.

Sear is probably the one spell that absolutely needs a buff at this point; it's very very underwhelming compared to it's mage counterparts.

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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by Snake » Sat May 18, 2019 5:34 pm

Maybe go the Final Fantasy route and give them Leylines? Evoker definitely needs its base spells to get a bit more strength, and the problem is not really increasing the Elemental ATK, but the Scaled Weapon Attack. You see melee weapons gaining way too much of that number without the need to invest in Elemental ATK and dealing absurd damage for almost no momentum or counterplay (read: Silence), like Evoker has.

Either way, the thing about Leylines is this, you may try to make it a bit more original, but it's kind of a fun thing:
Leylines (Main Class only)
8 round cooldown
Evokers tend to not only draw runic tattoos on themselves to absorb Focus, but they may also sometimes resort to drawing a massive amounts of Focus from the ambient, making it easier for them to cast magic. And they can do this by shaping magic energies into bigger runes on the ground.

On use, destroys any special tiles under and creates a circle of Leylines under you that enhances the Leyline owner's spellcasting. Standing on Leylines increase their magic's range by LV and damage by LV*5%. At Rank 3, reduces Momentum costs of non-Invocation spells by 1. At maximum rank reduces Offensive magic FP costs by LV*5%. (LV = Skill Rank)

Any unit that stands in the Leylines, be it ally or foe, will have Evade reduced by 50%, Physical Damage Reduction reduced by 75%, but Magic Damage reduction increased by 50%.

If the tile is unoccupied when a round ends, it disappears on the next round. Leylines cannot be destroyed by field-erasing effects from magic (such as Magaisendo or Sanctuary).

Rank 1: 1M, 7% of your Maximum FP, 1 round duration
Rank 2: 1M, 9% of your Maximum FP, 2 round duration
Rank 3: 2M, 11% of your Maximum FP, 3 round duration, Affects Momentum costs.
Rank 4: 2M, 13% of your Maximum FP, 4 round duration
Rank 5: 3M, 15% of your Maximum FP, 5 round duration, Affects FP costs.
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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by Exxy » Sat May 18, 2019 8:13 pm

Snake wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:34 pm
Leylines (Main Class
8 round cooldown
Any unit that stands in the Leylines, be it ally or foe, will have Evade reduced by 50%, Physical Damage Reduction reduced by 75%, but Magic Damage reduction increased by 50%.


Only problem I see with this part immediately is how powerful this can interact with Magnetized enemies and Earth Mages as a whole. Granted it's a gambit in it's own right since you'd be trading your defense as well on top of pulling the enemy in which would save them from wasting possible Momentum getting to you.

Not entirely sure how I feel about this iteration of your suggestion. Would definitely like to see Evoker get some love though. Maybe make a separate thread for it.
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Re: When to Evoker if I am just a Mage?

Post by Snake » Sat May 18, 2019 9:04 pm

That's to make it so you're not the mister all powerful 2M, +25% damage, -25% FP cost flash-spellcasting for standing on something without a few drawbacks, be it you're a tank or dodge-based char.

It's supposed to sharply drop your defenses, AND, sharply increase your offenses. Just like in Final Fantasy, the source of them. And something Evoker might want to have, given they don't naturally offer any defensive options anyway. So further dropping their already non-existent defenses in trade for higher damage is kind of okay, I think?

And in case I misread, the 'friend or foe' part is to make the Leylines an undesirable position to be on, for anything but the creator of it.

And in case you misread, Leylines are supposed to be 1 tile only, the tile directly under you. I don't know how Magnetized enemies will suffer to it.
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