Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

"VAs are too strong!" "Evokers are too weak!" "Nerf Kinu!"
A place for all your ideas and woes regarding game balance.
User avatar
Fern
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 524
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:46 pm
Location: Phantasm

Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by Fern » Thu May 23, 2019 3:33 am

Frankly speaking, over time, a significant amount of people have asked me to make sword basic attacker builds for them, usually requiring something for Ghost or Kensei. There's two things I've noticed that tends to stand out in this process, more often than not:

1. They're asking for a Tarnada build.
2. They're wanting to use a sword, but it turns out that running Tarnada tends to be the much more optimal choice, so they abandon their original idea and instead shoot for that.

Without context, maybe one would think that people just like shooting tornadoes out, but it turns out that's not the only thing that has been making people flock to Tarnada. Here's Tarnada's pros and cons:

PROS:
- High base stats in Power, Critical and Accuracy.
- Split STR/CEL scaling, 50% each.
- 24% chance of casting an invocation (Vydel) on critical hit, when at maximum upgrades.

CONS:
- And this is where the core problem is present. There's hardly any drawbacks to Tarnada, which makes it the go-to choice for most dodge duelist basic attackers 9 times out of 10 if they are seeking to be majorly optimal. The base stats it dons are far greater than most other katanas, if not all of them.

Here's a few examples of what I mean with base statistics:

TARNADA: 15 POW, 95 ACC, 10 CRIT
SOGENSARA: 11 POW, 80 ACC, 0 CRIT
AKUJIN, RAIJIN, KOUENJIN, SANJIN AND YUKIJIN: 9 POW, 85 ACC, 0 CRIT

As you can see, Tarnada overshadows most other katanas with ease. Sure, it could be argued that since it's a 10*, it's meant to be powerful and worth the effort when it comes to upgrading it.

... But it has high base stats. It casts an invocation on critical, or rather, has a good chance to. That means you can get a huge load of critical, hit rate and damage with it, on top of the occasional Vydel that knocks down an entire party after dishing out roughly 250+ Wind magical damage. Because people tend to pair it up with Talvyd.

Even without the enchant, pulling out an invocation on critical is a pretty big effect. This is currently an optimal Tarnada set up, for the record:

Image

So here are a few propositions:

A) Change the scaling of Tarnada to 45% STR 45% CEL, and reduce Vydel's activation chance to UL/2%, giving it the Skullcaver treatment from a long time ago. Skullcaver is a 10* Axe club that has a UL/2% chance of stunning on crit, for context. It used to be UL%, but got changed due to the effect being too frequent and overbearing.

B) Change the effect to a special version of Wind Slasher that goes off 100% Wind ATK 100% SWA and cannot inflict lingering damage or be boosted by Charge Mind. Additionally, lower its base power to 11.

C) Change the scaling of Tarnada to 45% STR 45% CEL, and its base power to 11 like Sogensara.


Keep in mind that the part of high base stats in general should be fine, since it's a 10* item after all.
Image

User avatar
Spoops
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am
Location: Somewhere

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by Spoops » Thu May 23, 2019 3:42 am

Tarnada is currently sitting in a spot that makes it literally better than any other sword in the game, not many swords are currently considered over it unless you cannot fit CEL into your build, and most duelists absolutely can, this sword isn't just a case of "Build crit evade and counter it" unlike many other solves to crit based effects, as with its high base critical and the right setup you can easily crit people with high crit evade anyways, it often becomes a problem for anyone to face this sword as it quite clearly outmatches anything put up against it.

The sheer effect of getting hit by the vydel itself turns matches into its favor entirely, as you are now eating anywhere from 200-300 wind magic damage and possibly even being knocked down, on a random tile somewhere, this shifts the advantage of the match entirely into the Tarnada user's favor, especially if multiple people are caught in the vydel itself.
A) Change the scaling of Tarnada to 45% STR 45% CEL, and reduce Vydel's activation chance to UL/2%, giving it the Skullcaver treatment from a long time ago. Skullcaver is a 10* Axe club that has a UL/2% chance of stunning on crit, for context. It used to be UL%, but got changed due to the effect being too frequent and overbearing.
The first suggestion is one I am clearly in favor for here as it is something that I have said Tarnada should be, Vydel procs very commonly and can absolutely turn the tide of battle if even ONE procs, let alone if this effect triggers multiple times throughout the fight, the lowered scaling of the weapon itself will help serve as a foothold to let it maintain its egregiously high base stats (10% more average critical and hit than any other katana, sporting braver levels of power on top of this)

As someone who's been using it on a sword build its far too powerful, and is currently the best in slot of any swordsman with CEL easily, at least with the proposed change here it'd make it not as appealing as maybe other katana can be, after witnessing just exactly what the Vydel incurs I can say for sure being hit by that vydel proc and being knocked down at the same time just sucks, there's nothing you can do at that point except accept that you've lost because you got most of your health chunked away in a singular moment and you're at a momentum deficit because of it, on the other side of the map.

Since it is a 10 star it should remain strong, but its far too overbearing right now to not warrant being looked at, thats all I have to say.

GameMaster85
Novice Member
Novice Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:51 am

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by GameMaster85 » Thu May 23, 2019 3:52 am

From what I've seen the usual trend is the more stars, the less scaling overall, but the more powerful the item itself. If scaling gets too low, the item becomes worthless unless the item effect/power has more bearing. Look at EXPLODING KUNAI (Which has a chain, I mean they return to you when you throw them. It might as well.) that has piss poor scaling but an AOE unresistable explosion. There's a lot of fundamental problems in general where items that are flat out stronger are... flat out stronger. In my mind, weapons that are easy to obtain should be "straightforward to use" and "potentially optimal" in terms of power, and more rare items should be "specialized/unique" and "harder to do right." This sort of mentality balances the favor to the peasants like me who have to trade asagos to get any items. (It's also assumed this is assumed because 1* items tend to have the highest total scaling in the game.)

There's a lot we can do with the Tarnada, but I like fun. So lets have some fun.

THE FUN-NADA DELUXE 2.0

CHANGES

On Hit: 50% WND ATK as Wind Magic Damage
On Critical: Causes "Tornado Warning" debuff, (After wind magic damage) Which induces a single-target (or circle-wide?) Vydel effect if unit takes 50 Wind Damage in total. 3 Rounds. Refreshes duration but not LV. (LV starts at 50, decreases as wind damage is taken.)

---

The added wind damage can make a direct counter via resists, because we know which class uses this weapon a lot.
It would also add to the debuff right after it hits, which once the unit takes enough Wind Damage, would trigger a special version of Vydel that ONLY spawns on the unit itself and doesn't move around. If it is an AOE, Recommend 1-2 Circle around the affected unit while everyone twirls about on them.

The Wind Damage addon compliments the debuff it adds as it's not required to be a mage to add to it, and some good 4-5 hits would do the trick.

I'm not good at the game. What do you think?

User avatar
Spoops
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am
Location: Somewhere

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by Spoops » Thu May 23, 2019 4:01 am

Revisiting my last post, I'd also like to add the secondary option is fine too if we replace it with a lower damage wind slasher, as thats not throwing people across the map anymore, its still good but it can be dealt with unlike Vydel (Which is an invocation)

User avatar
Senna
Intermediate Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by Senna » Thu May 23, 2019 4:50 am

Kay so, I'mma make this one short! Can't be asked to type a wall on another Katana weapon. So here we go!

OKAY! Some may be asking: What's wrong with this sword? Although the scaling is pretty decent (It ain't no 60/60), someone triggering the effect can easily change the tide of the battle. What really makes this sword dangerous is it's effect. It isn't about skills and outplay anymore, it becomes a game of RNG, will it proc this round or the next, lol. Due to it scaling off of Cel, which pretty much helps with wind element and most to all evasive duelist runs CEL, it's easy to build this weapon into their kit and abuse the ability/passive it holds. Ever got hit with a 250-300 three hit crit combo only for them to trigger it's effect and get clapped by another 120+ damage and have it throw you across the battlefield? That shit makes the sea salty big dog.

Although I can say, it's commonly used but there are alot of people that actually uses something else despite how powerfully it is! It all depends on the build at the end of the day.


Firstly! I don't mind the first option however let's not murder the weapon like we did with Sogen? Because that's pretty much Yuki lite at this point.

The second option,
Change the effect to a special version of Wind Slasher that goes off 100% Wind ATK 100% SWA and cannot inflict lingering damage or be boosted by Charge Mind. Additionally, lower its base power to 11.

Seems a little neat to be honest and if I gotta pick one out of the three, it'd be this, but if the effects should change, while now give it more an original feel to it, yeah? Than let it use an already in game spell, lol. Like a AOE knock up that affects only people around them that does damage with the given scaling Fern listed; similar to Mare Wing in a way but the effects in reverse or something like that. Don't mind the old Senna rumbling.

Aside from me being the Senna I am, I do like the second option more than the other two.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
EenKogNeeto
Intermediate Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by EenKogNeeto » Thu May 23, 2019 6:22 am

Without wanting to get into an elaborate debate on all this (This time) I like the idea of changing it to wind slasher a lot. Vydel is honestly way too powerful for on crit since it hits like, 3x10 tiles or whatever?
Windslasher would still potentially doubletap on a fat sidecut, without being QUITE so team-destroying when it procs at the right time and place.


Also getting Vydel procced on me rarely hurts me so much as it helps me by throwing me 99 miles away where they cant followup. Which is probably way more annoying to the user than a windslasher would be.

User avatar
Exxy
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:21 pm
Location: North Carolina, U.S.

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by Exxy » Thu May 23, 2019 1:37 pm

I have to agree with a lot of the points made against the sword in this post. In the short time I've been back, I've seen numerous people use it to the point I'd say it beats out other commonly used swords by twice, if not three times, the amount; simply put, that sort of demographic speaks enough on its own to say an adjustment is in order.

Strictly going off the OP, I'd have to say I'm in favor of Options B or C with (personal) preference falling on Option B. Simply because the Vydel effect seems too strong in team scenarios and still more-than-capable in 1v1. I think the pros far-outweigh the cons of Vydel proccing considering it's usually locked behind a 3M move that oftentimes accompanies Fleur.
Also Known As:
Exxy Izzy

User avatar
Snake
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2477
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:14 pm
Location: Motherbase - Main Office

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by Snake » Thu May 23, 2019 4:34 pm

I prefer option B+C. Tarnada's scaling is a tad oof-owchie for such a toned up base statted Katana. And instead of Vydel or Wind Slasher, it should probably be Air Pressure under the effects of Talvyd, the spell it casts. I believe Wind Slasher wouldn't interact so well with things like Riposte.

Besides, Air Pressure has a nice animation.
"Show me what you've got, Snake!"
Image
Image ~ Dev, 08/16/2016.

User avatar
DoctorMad
Intermediate Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:35 am

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by DoctorMad » Fri May 24, 2019 3:03 am

Keeping in mind that changing it to Wind Cutter won't STRICTLY be a debuff.
Though it'll be pretty close, it'll also stop Vydel form throwing off whoever you're attacking across the map, effectively kiting yourself. It might even be a welcome change, depending on how players take it.

Side question to dev, can you tell me why its stats are so high?

User avatar
Spoops
Posted to Death
Posted to Death
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 am
Location: Somewhere

Re: Skiddadle Skeddoodle, you're a Tornoodle.

Post by Spoops » Fri May 24, 2019 4:07 am

Another option is possibly making it Vyd instead of Wind Slasher as well, I feel as though that will possibly cause it to have far less abuse than any other spell, as its single target and not possibly AoE.

Post Reply