Change to rush down strategies

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Jupiter_Storm
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Re: Change to rush down strategies

Post by Jupiter_Storm » Wed May 29, 2019 6:41 pm

Noxid wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:04 am
I don't really have much strong feelings on the other suggestions, other than I feel like gimmicky builds should be able to keep their gimmicks.
This part cannot be overlooked lightly, a character should never ever ever be punished in a team fight for building to be particularly effective as a member of team, against a team. You will only ever get clean-swept by a setup like this if all the characters on your team are specifically minmaxed to be most effective as a solo combatant. I would even be willing to prove this fact if evidence is honestly even required.

For this reason I don't see why CC's should be hindered on Turn 0. It's never been decisive for anything I've participated in, I'm sure other team-oriented characters will agree if they happen to stumble upon this thread.

A limitation on the reduction of momentum is, however, sensible, and benefits everybody no matter who they are or how they choose to play.

Furthermore a split deployment is also very sensible and again, hurts nobody, even allowing your team leader to try to make predictions regarding placement, introducing another element of tactical acumen that would be most welcome. A good addition, and would 'fix' the perceived issues with the Turn 0 game in a way that's fair for both sides of the camp.

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Spoops
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Re: Change to rush down strategies

Post by Spoops » Thu May 30, 2019 2:32 am

Jupiter_Storm wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 6:41 pm
Noxid wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:04 am
I don't really have much strong feelings on the other suggestions, other than I feel like gimmicky builds should be able to keep their gimmicks.
This part cannot be overlooked lightly, a character should never ever ever be punished in a team fight for building to be particularly effective as a member of team, against a team. You will only ever get clean-swept by a setup like this if all the characters on your team are specifically minmaxed to be most effective as a solo combatant. I would even be willing to prove this fact if evidence is honestly even required.

For this reason I don't see why CC's should be hindered on Turn 0. It's never been decisive for anything I've participated in, I'm sure other team-oriented characters will agree if they happen to stumble upon this thread.
I can see where you're coming from here, and while the proposed positions would heavily stop AoE knockdowns from being sourced from one person (As people would be spread too far for it), knockdown rushdowns can be really strong in 1v1s as well, though a matter of fairness can absolutely be debated (I stand on the side that if a character decides to be unfair and gains an advantage because of it, thats just realistic.) I do feel it teeters on the edge of partially being unbalanced and not really so much depending on the enemy team matchup/How many martial artists you're sporting.

With the new positions I do think the part where round 0 knockdowns being limited can be removed here, lantern bearers do exist as a medium to prevent it and cleanse potions can even cure knockdown should need be.

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Raigen.Convict
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Re: Change to rush down strategies

Post by Raigen.Convict » Thu May 30, 2019 5:55 pm

Boy do I have some experience with round 0 being the round I'm left with 20% of my max hp, less than 7 momentum or both potentially. I agree with all spoops changes, never have I ever seen something more infuriating than my set-up being ruined by 4 people who cross the map and focus me down before I can move and my team loses specifically because they focused one member down before they got a chance to do anything, making that focused member feel utterly useless.
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Re: Change to rush down strategies

Post by Spoops » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:31 am

I'm going to bump this thread since it still stays relevant, we really NEED to not be so clumped up at the start of the fight, it enables too many shenanigans and makes initiative the absolute king currently, so I'm going to revise my points to only include the starting positions be changed in team fights, I'm still going to suggest the graphic I linked in my first post as the best way to handle it.

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This one specifically.

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Raigen.Convict
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Re: Change to rush down strategies

Post by Raigen.Convict » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:38 pm

I'm all for spooks lovely idea.
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Kameron8
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Re: Change to rush down strategies

Post by Kameron8 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:15 am

This is from over 2 years ago, but these points don't seem to have aged too badly. These days, I don't have strong feelings toward whether or not the board should shift from its current situation for 1 vs 1 battles, but in large-scale fights it gets very skewed, very quickly.
Kameron8 wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:41 am
The map is (as far as PvP is concerned) a 21x19 grid, spawning teams in a wave shape exactly 10 tiles away from the enemy on the same X-axis as them. This heavily favors rush builds, since the 'First Move' talent will almost always allow a character to bridge that gap in 3m or less.

That means, the current 'top tier' round 0 aggressors are builds such as:

- Demon Hunters with guns, who can Burn up -> Winged Serpent to your team for one momentum, then shoot all of you with lead storm. Twice.
- VA's, who can run all the way behind the person they're facing and cutthroat them.
- Duelists, who can run most of the way, sidecut if they can't quite reach, and continue attacking afterward.

Rush builds don't extend to only damage, however. Crowd control rushing is equally, if not more desirable in large scale situations. Group-wide silence, interference, knockdown, etc, can win a fight before it really starts.

To avoid sounding like I'm rambling, the point I'm making is that not only are people spawning too close to the enemy teams for PvP, they're starting too close to their allies as well. My suggestion is to change the spawn pattern to a 'four-corners' pattern, that adds a little more distance to combatants, and unclumps larger teams to minimize the impact of AoE.

Current:
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Suggested: (People will prioritize spawning in the lowest numbers, meaning a 1v1 would place people in slots 1 and 2, a 2v2 would place people in slots 1, 2, 3, and 4, and so on.)
Image

With the new map, people would be hard pressed to cross the entire distance and still attack. Long ranged bows, Raging Sidecuts, and Winged Serpent can still accomplish it, but if you pull everyone to the very far corners you invert the problem and benefit buff heavy builds. I base these distances off of the idea that 11-13 move is what most people can achieve if they're trying to go fast, and 10 is the hard cap for heavy armored tanks.

Since the new spawning coordinates would be (6,4) (8,2) (14,2) (16,4) against (6,18) (8,16) (14,16) (16,18), the furthest anyone can ever be from an opponent is in a 1v1 scenario, where they'll be 20 tiles away. In 4v4 scenarios people will be 14 tiles from the nearest enemy. This means 19 tiles and 13 tiles of movement are required to get into melee for the worst and best case scenario, respectively.

That's just my idea, the real takeaway from this is that more distance than what we have now is needed, and unclumping large groups is also very important.

The old thread in question.

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Re: Change to rush down strategies

Post by FaeLenx » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:37 pm

How has such a good idea existed for so long without ever being implemented?

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