All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

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Detective100
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All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

Post by Detective100 » Thu May 30, 2019 8:47 pm

At the moment, there are mainly four stats that are used as the main scaling for most weapons: Will (Tomes, the "magical" weapons), skill (Guns, most bows), guile (daggers), and str (spears, axes, fists, and swords).

Naturally, that is simply a rough generalization of the scaling, and there are different weapons on each category that scale differently. (most notably daggers). However, those stats are usually the main ones for those weapon categories.

Out of all those stats, though, str is the one that gives the least amount of usage in combat. The best way to show it is to write down what each stat does (ignoring specific elemental boosts):
Will:
5 FP per 1 point, +1 skill pool per 10 points, +1 in all elemental per 4 points.

Skill:
+2 hit, 0.5 crit,+2% status infliction per +1 point, +1 skill pool per 5 points.

Guile: +1 flank, +1% crit damage per point, +1 skill pool per 5 points.

STR:
+1 Max battle weight, +1 max encumbrance per point.
With those comparison, a problem can be spotted: While str only serves at most to increase one's battleweight to use heavier equipment, the other stats give out more in favor of the weapons, and possibly the classes that fit them- High will gives a good sum of FP to spend on spells, as well as an added extra to skill pools and elemental damages.

Skill outright helps people in landing their basic attacks/ignore evasion, and with a good enough skill, only then need to spend in one other stat, luck to reach a good hit chance. (Builds that need str, for comparison, are forced to spend in both). Also, pointing out the added skill pools, which always help.

Guile, I'll admit, would be the "2nd" least useful cmopared to the other two. Yet, it still has its niche- It helps in increasing one's crit damage for crit builds. Gives flank to increase one's hit when not in the front, and again, gives skill pool.

Now, looking into STR, the only in combat benefit it really gives is BW, which can allow someone to use heavy armor. I won't say that battle weight is useless- It can allow someone to use the heavier materials for their armor and weapon, and also lets someone use heavier weapon compoments, if needed.

That said, I do not think just BW is a good enough bonus for str, when compared to the other two:
1)There are talents that are here to help people in increasing their total BW, as well as lowering their weapon's BW. Using one of my characters, as an example, all I needed was 5 str points at most to both the armor with the material I wanted, and the gun. Of course, this can differ depending on what adjustments I'll make to the build, but the point stands.

2)When it comes to weapon compoments, most of them are either +power, +hit, or +crit. Naturally, though, investing into skill will at most of the times, give a lot more hit, and crit, than the weapon compoments.
I am not saying this is a bad thing- Weapon compoments should be that, compoments that help further boost one's build, and not be a replacement for stats. However, I hope this will help in showing that the usage of heavier weapon compoments, by themselves, aren't a strong enough reason to let STR stay as is.

3)While I spoke of the heavier materials and compoments, I should note that one can use the less heavy materials and compoments, and still generally good benefits for their weapons.

Thus, as it stands, str ends up mostly used for fire/cinder gimmicks, since the +fire damage is really the only bonus one can take advantage out of str, if they use str-based weapons.

So, with those points brought out, I would like to have a possible disccussion on how to buff str- Or at least, make the stat a bit more alluring for people.

I'll bring one option out for now:
STR granting HP:
Either a +2, or +3 per point in str. The reasoning is simple: A man with a lot of muscles should have a lot of endurance. As someone pointed out, "think barbarian from 5e". This should also help the physical fighters that rely on str to have a bit more HP, to help stay in the fray a longer time than those who don't.
Well, this is it from me for now, what are your guys' thoughts?

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Spoops
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Re: All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

Post by Spoops » Fri May 31, 2019 2:40 am

Its been discussed many times before and I believe Dev has stated that HP is a sensible option, I'd be all for STR granting +3 HP Per point and I don't see why it needs to be much of a huge discussion still.

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Raigen.Convict
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Re: All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

Post by Raigen.Convict » Fri May 31, 2019 2:47 am

I say Strength should be a crude version of critical damage as well, not as good as guile but 0.5 critical damage, that way we won't miss our crit damage as hard in our builds and balance will be restored. This is really a simple change that would allow strength to not feel so "do I have to?" in your build and you can sacrifice your guile for it.
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Detective100
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Re: All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

Post by Detective100 » Fri May 31, 2019 4:09 am

If we are bringing other possible add-ons to str, I'll bring possible two:
Str giving skill pool points
I know, I know, we already got 3 stats that give skill pools. Thing is, all of those stats are stats that you use to scale up your weapon, provided they fit the category (tome, dagger, most bows, and guns). If so, then... Why is STR different?

Str giving hit
It could be as simple as just giving +1 to hit. It can allow those who want to focus on basic attacking, withoutan added interest in landing crit attacks (since str won't give crit chance), a way to pick a stat that scales up their damage, as well as increase their hit chance.

Right now, this is just me bringing up other possibilites on the table. :)

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Lolzytripd
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Re: All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

Post by Lolzytripd » Fri May 31, 2019 5:11 am

I don't think Skill slots, hit, or hp really fit the "pure offense" of strength, .5 crit damage helps but it ties strength to luck and skill to get use out of it.


I still feel the proper answer is defensive penetration of some sort, Reducing DR from attacks by 50% scaled strength.

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Re: All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

Post by Akame » Fri May 31, 2019 12:19 pm

STR giving just HP is fine.
Maybe STR giving crit 0.5 damage could be fine since GUI mostly scales for daggers.
Not so much for STR giving hit. It would throw off the Hit vs Evade balance even more.
I don't think STR should pierce DR either, STR is far too easy to stack to warrant that kind of change. We have Spatial Spiral(rampaging) for that, anyway.

Overall, I'm mostly for the HP recommendation Spoops brought up again, then secondly Raigen's suggestion if not the first.

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Re: All muscles, no show (STR discussion)

Post by Snake » Fri May 31, 2019 4:55 pm

I believe that increasing Critical Damage by 0.5% per 1 point is really the way to go here. A bonus to HP is also fine, but I second that.

Though, I also believe Heavy Armor should have something to help lower the chances of Critical Hits landing, or lower Critical Damage akin to how Unarmored has Evasion to lower the numbers on unavoidable damage. Tanks have already been nerfed, so they will probably suffer a lot if out of nowhere Critical Hits start hurting more than they should.
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