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Curate Class Line

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:58 am
by WaifuApple
Something that has always been an issue to me with curate as a class is that a lot of its balance is made completely down to the tenants (that can and will be completely ignored in some cases) and the general goodwill of people not to heal in spars to keep things fair (and from dragging on). But while I have no problems with the healing itself, nor even problems with the damage itself, I come to find myself having a problem with how they can be combined with no detriment to one or the other if you use both.

The offensive skills of Curate and Priest can hit pretty hard. Needle into another move of light damage like shine ray can hit you hard, just like any class. But unlike most other classes, this damage is often supplemented by healing that gives amazing sustainability. And my problem is the potency of these two when used together.

While this may sound ambitious, I'd like to propose a suggestion of balance to the offensive and defensive capabilities of the class. A nerf to both damage and healing (numbers are not my strong point though). But just straight nerfing both wouldn't be good for the class. My idea for balance goes further than that:

Pacifist Boon would return healing back to the norm so long as it was active (affecting all classes). You'd essentially force yourself into a supporting role for the sustainability you could normally hold up alongside the damage you would have had otherwise. Dealing damage would therefore cut healing back (but mean you'd be able to switch from pure healing to a mix but not go back in that match.)

On the damaging side, there are some who might choose to go full offense. In that case, a skill opposing pacifist boon could exist. So long as you don't use a curate healing skill, your damage will return to the standard damage we have now. When you do use one, though, you return to mixed, cutting your damage capabilities once more.

Whatever happens, I just feel that allowing their combination of heals and offense to be so easy for them is no good for balance. But I also want to keep healers as a potent force (every good team should have a healer because that's how you balance teams). Feel free to weigh in and suggest alternatives.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:18 pm
by Raigen.Convict
10/10 would add.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:33 am
by Noxid
Curates offensive abilities aren't really that strong they are decent. Needle for example requires someone position themselves incorrectly that or a teammate forces them to move into position (I feel like this is fair though as teamwork should be rewarded). There is also the fact that for the most part you are restricted to one element, light. Slip on some sunglasses and a crystal mirror and watch the curate cry.

As for the heals, in a teamfight you have no excuses for not bringing one of the many counters to healing on your team. Random teams at the arena? Let's not use fights at the arena where people draft from whoever just happens to be there for balance. Random teams is gonna lead to random results. In a 1v1? Yeah you can't bring a counter for everything but then again 1v1 has plenty of other balance issues too with plenty of other classes, it's just the nature of 1v1s

The problem with tying healing to pacifist boon is even the damage from brighten will remove it and there is no way to reapply pacifist boon. This locks you into a certain playstyle removing options at your disposal and making the class much more dull to play. Sure you could continue to try and heal but it would be a waste of fp and m if the healing was drastically reduced. Keep in mind curates main heal can only be used once a turn and is very short range. Even if you used mass you and your ally are very likely to be victim to an AoE now. The other heals present in the curate promotion classes both have cooldowns so I feel they are justified.

If there really must be a nerf then I'd say have offensive light spells be given similar treatment that other spells that scale of defensive stats got. Reduced scaling on the spells and/or the tomes, although not to the same extent as def or res since faith isn't as universally good defensively like them. Another idea I've long thrown around is simply make it so mercalan spells are less effective when used on yourself. After all, you should be helping others and not just yourself.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:32 am
by WaifuApple
They are pretty much along the lines of other spells, but with the added bonus being cast by someone who also very much has the stats to keep your entire team alive. Damage you didn't actively try to deal (brighten, pray) should not remove pacifist boon imho and that's a different issue. But my problem is that it can fare just as any damaging magic class does AND heal on top of that. You also have lantern bearer for interference immunity readily available to certain curates, limiting the amount of countermeasures that can be done.

I do not want to punish damaging light builds because of how unbalanced I believe mixing such damage and healing is for the game. It's not just a problem of them healing themselves, either. They can very much carry the whole team while doing damage when they're not needed for healing.

I stand by my own idea, still.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:44 am
by Noxid
They may have similar scalings to other spells but they do not have the damage potential of an evokers spells for example. The thing is you cannot deal damage equal to other classes and nullify the enemey's damage via healing in the same turn (unless the other team is very bad) You choose to spend you momentum on healing or on damage. The game is full of other such similar choices. Take a my bk/dh for example, I could spend my momentum on a turn guarding (becoming more tanky) or I could use rising tide and chaser (choosing damage). I could go on and list many such examples from the classes, should they be allowed to do damage and another thing? I'd say yes, variety is the spice of life after all.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:15 pm
by WaifuApple
I'm all for them being able to do both. But not to the potency they currently have. A healer without damage can already carry a team with no issue. To throw in damage then becomes overkill to me when they were already capable of carrying the team beforehand. There's nothing stopping them from throwing a shield in the mix, either, giving them access to that guard too. Suddenly they can do exactly what you can but also heal if they want to. Healing and guarding aren't exactly that comparable, either.

Evoker is meant to be the damage dealing mage class. Of course this class isn't meant to have the same damage potential. I'm not even cutting their support here, either. They can still buff or remove debuffs from allies instead of attacking, so they still have their choices of what to do. But no, in this state, they are not fine. Two things to a class that can exist very competently alone that can then also be brought together without making really much sacrifice at all should not have that same potency without further drawback.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:10 pm
by Noxid
It just simply isn't true that curate's healing can carry your team. You yourself stated in your original post that every good team should have a healer. So how is it this apparently overpowered class can carry one team to victory when both teams have a member using this overpowered class? They just don't.

For a real example of this I'll talk about a fight that happened recently at an event. We faced off against a team with two curates and did they carry their team? Nope, actually we killed the two non curates first. The point is, if you know what you are doing curate is easily dealt with, it cannot carry a team unless of course your opposition is bad but then all sorts of stuff can run rampant against a bad team.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:49 pm
by WaifuApple
A lot of good healers would have set up interference immunity at this point, following with a revive and a heal to the downed person. Taking down the non-healers in a fight honestly doesn't mean anything a lot of the time. You can make a good team and still be unable to keep up with this - while both non-healers and healers burst you down when nobody's in need of healing. I do not agree at all with your point here.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:55 pm
by Spoops
I've always thought that healing should have more fair methods of fighting it, and not have straight up healing denial present in the game via interference, something akin to 50% healing reduction on interference would allow it to see more wide spread use on skills and classes that could utilize it better.

As it stands though there's a clear balance issue when it comes to healing and denying healing, where in healing is really good and feels worthwhile to use, while on the same foot being denied your healing straight up through an easy to apply status effect by certain classes feels god awful to play with.

Though I will say a good healer doesn't carry the team alone, only once you're reaching elf graft levels of healing output is when stuff like graft or healing discharge starts getting those insane numbers like 440+ HP restored. (And this is only with detailed care, mind.)In which case thats sort of deserved since the elf in question usually has to build a LOOOT of SAN to do it.

Curate damage is fine, so is priest damage, the utility of LB is what set it off rocker for a bit, gentle embers is amazing at denying certain tools that once controlled healers in their entirety. (Silence/Knockdown/Interference immunity for instance)

Right now I will say the common strategy is not defeating the healer first if they're tanky, since that'll take too long, its applying interference to their party members which will usually have weaker status resistance and tenacity, in which case the healer themself feels no more than just a glorified mage slot, which I don't have to tell you how awful that feels.

Re: Curate Class Line

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:58 pm
by WaifuApple
Gentle embers to cause interference immunity if done right would make it a "outspeed the healer or lose your chance" for that strategy, possibly settling it in the early rounds by that point. If nothing from this post is going to come to be, I at least want to make gentle embers additional status resistance towards an element, not immunity. With interference being the one status to switch down that healing, and immunities in general being super powerful, widespread status immunity shouldn't remain.

As far as changing interference goes, 50% is the Dullahan number and you'd have to mess with that race to change it. But make interference a more common status, make it something between 50% and 75% reduction and don't lock them into doing nothing but don't give them even more power.

But I still believe the combination they have between damage, healing, and support (all with one single stat spread) is a bit too much.