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Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:38 pm
by Swiftkusura
Fair enough. I don't think Phenex is exactly a bad race like everyone else does, but I do think from the ashes makes it very hard to come back with any ground to stand on, if you even come back at all with interference being a thing.

Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:11 pm
by Spoops
I originally thought that the badly beaten you got from reviving with the passive was quite a bummer but ultimately it is balanced, Phenex would very quickly become a mandatory interference or lose scenario considering how much HP it can restore, not to mention you can actually chain revive with it at high enough SAN and enough sustain.

The badly beaten stacks on it is probably fine for now, as much as it sucks, we need better solutions to healing before changing that.

Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:45 pm
by Swiftkusura
That's why I told Princess the healing doesn't need to be higher, but in the same sense Spo I disagree, as Glykins can outheal their revive in the time it takes to get to the end of the fight, assuming 50 scaled san phenex versus 50 scaled san glykin 25 hp a turn versus 250 hp assuming they have 500 fp when they die, you have no ground to stand on to tell me phenex is op compared to anything at all or even tell me that it makes sense that their racial is just a shittier version of another races.

Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:10 pm
by Spoops
"Because x OP race that can self-sustain exists, this should also be given the very same treatment" is not the argument I was going for here, nor is what should be argued.

Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:16 pm
by Swiftkusura
While that may be the case, Spo, phenex are shutdown by one turn of interference where glykins don't care. comparible to other races they may as well not get a racial because even if you "Disagree" that it shouldn't compare to another race because they're op glykins have much more than just a better heal, they reduces statuses they suffer, they're immune to poison can't be bitten by a vampire must I go on of why their *Only actual good racial* is aweful? Oh man look at this phenex who's out of fp, be a shame if he "From the ashes" with 1 hp because he's at 2 fp right now, boy what a BROKEN ABILITY

Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:30 pm
by Spoops
Swiftkusura wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:16 pm
While that may be the case, Spo, phenex are shutdown by one turn of interference where glykins don't care. comparible to other races they may as well not get a racial because even if you "Disagree" that it shouldn't compare to another race because they're op glykins have much more than just a better heal, they reduces statuses they suffer, they're immune to poison can't be bitten by a vampire must I go on of why their *Only actual good racial* is aweful? Oh man look at this phenex who's out of fp, be a shame if he "From the ashes" with 1 hp because he's at 2 fp right now, boy what a BROKEN ABILITY
Explain to me how Phenex are shut down even more than Glykin when interference is coming into play here, its not exactly as if one gains more healing over the other when interference is constantly applied, rather not in fact. When one turn is come into consideration thats just how burst healing goes? Obviously sustained healing and burst healing are gonna be much different arguments to make.

As per one of my previous posts I did mention an option that would remedy both of the problems stated, in that there probably needs to be more fair methods of healing prevention and combatting it with things that aren't just denying all healing outright, otherwise you get this dichotomy where in playing a healing role feels satisfying until the status comes into play, then you just feel useless outright afterwards even if you weren't the one to apply it.

The same goes for self sustain in this matter, its not assured that a Phenex would be at 2 FP, one build craft idea I had would be to constantly have cleanse potions on my bar as a phenex with a lot of FP and FP Sustain, with some good SAN as well, which is more than possible, then you wash away or cleanse potion off From The Ashes AND Badly Beaten so that you can continue using from the Ashes, restoring FP via VA and GS or Priest, and continue dealing good damage with detogate or black bolt.

As I did mention before, it sucks yes but its not needed to be changed until healing is dealt with.

Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:07 pm
by Swiftkusura
Because you only have to be right once with phenex, where a glykin reduces duration of negative effects by 1 if over 3 rounds sometimes and can break their interference with some skills, where a phenex can't stop you from interferenceing them and then promptly killing them in the same turn, guess what no "Half your fp" heal if you get hit by that happening.

Re: A Phenex with New Tricks

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 pm
by Detective100
Swiftkusura wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:59 am
I want From the Ashes to revive after the person who kills thems' turn, with 7 momentum *It's not hard dying, why are they gaining badly beaten, if they are last chance should too then because of the same logic* And because phenex are designed around Phoenix logic, it would be nice if they shed off *All* status effects on them *Good and bad* like burning away any impurities of their body when they heal themselves. This also would go into preventing interference and the grand summoner soul chains from preventing their revive.
I do not personally mind buffing up from the ashes for Phenex, would make me interested to play one with the future too :D

But... I disagree with having it activate only after the attacker's turn. It makes trying to counter, or even just working around it much more difficult.

Lets compare last chance for example (I know it is a class skill, but it is the easiest example I can think of). Once you knock someone out to the point they trigger last chance, it happens during the attacker's turn, allowing the player to potentially finish things off (which usually requires 3 more momentum). One can also potentially put a harming area such as cinders underneath to trigger on the next round, finishing the opponent off instead.

Reviving only after the enemy's turn, however, makes it so that the player can't really do anything about it, besides possibly stepping away when the revive happens, and putting something like cinders underneath. Any potential counters or workarounds decrease even more so if all the statuses are healed upon revive, since now they can't use statuses to try and hamper the revive.