Dullahans no weakness?

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FaeLenx
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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by FaeLenx » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:20 am

I mean, they get infinite mana resources without that interference interference. What's the difference between them being perma-stunned at 0 FP and any other character being nearly entirely worthless while interfered at 0 FP?

The only reason they might need monk-tier focus generation to start with is their FP requirement on all actions, but that's something mitigated by Sanctity which is just a really good stat investment as any class already.

They're a race that should exist as they are as much as possible since they provide unique mechanics that are supposed to impact your decisions with a lot of positives and negatives, but it feels like all of those unique mechanics have been given as much to compensate for their weaknesses as possible.

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Noxid
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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by Noxid » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:12 pm

Gonna chime in with a different perspective here that I don't think people may have considered. This is an Role playing game at the end of the day, it isn't supposed to be a balanced PvP game. Perhaps from a IC perspective they are supposed to be hard to take down? A big haunted suit of armour would logically be a harder fight than say a fluffy felidae. There is a precedent for this too, when people asked for shaitan nerfs dev stated that he wanted them to be scary and was quite light with the nerf.

The weakness Dullahan and other "monstrous" races should have is a social one, but people generally treat them like normal people rather than the freaks that they are. Something to considering anyway.

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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by Sawrock » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:35 pm

It's a roleplaying game; both roleplay and a game. Balance should still be considered.
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Noxid
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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by Noxid » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Sawrock wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:35 pm
It's a roleplaying game; both roleplay and a game. Balance should still be considered.
A game doesn't need to be balanced necessarily for it to be a game. Not that I'm saying throw balance out though. Just pointing out there might be legitimate IC reasons for a race to be slightly stronger than another. An easy fact to forget when many people spend their time OOC PvPing next to the blacksmith at the arena.

Honestly making them count as possessed race would be the best. Messing with anything else risks making the race useless.

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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by SolAndLuna » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:11 pm

I would like to counter with the argument that vampires are supposed to be powerful and feared ICly, even when they're not manipulating things from behind the scenes, and they have a patron deity, unlike dullahans. And even if that wasn't the case, there's a fairly huge difference between something being stronger and there being no reasonable way to deal with one. On top of that, a decent number of the "monstrous" races can blend in under the right conditions, dullahans included.

My point for all this being, allowing a race and/or class to do exceedingly well compared to others makes it less fair for the people that don't want to play said race and/or class, since there's no reason someone couldn't have a dullahan or a group of them going around attacking people, with the others simply having to find some way around the lack of weaknesses.


Now, back on topic. My personal opinion on the matter would be that, if it's possible, the interference resist could only apply to FP, or have it be changed to 30 + (SAN/2)%, as Spo has suggested. As for Soul Rage... well, when a dullahan can't just heal, it's a little less oppressive, I'd imagine, though having it inflict Silence for the duration is likely still a good idea to avoid instant casting of invocation spells. I don't believe I have much else to add for this, though, a lot of people have posted fairly good ideas for what could be done to resolve it.

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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by Spoops » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:13 pm

I share the opinion that an occult race that holds complications IC and ICly makes sense to be strong, should be strong, this is still a roleplay game and I do see the reasoning behind that, as that's been my opinion on vampires and dullahans for ages now.

But as Saw brought up, if something does become TOO strong, then its still a game and is an outlier that needs to be considered toning down (But still keeping strong)

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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by Jupiter_Storm » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:35 pm

SolAndLuna wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:11 pm
I would like to counter with the argument that vampires are supposed to be powerful and feared ICly, even when they're not manipulating things from behind the scenes, and they have a patron deity, unlike dullahans.
Like many things, vampires are strong if built around their strength. The reason they are not feared in the way that they should be is because of the way that the majority of vampire players choose to roleplay them. They don't feel the need to blend in. There was a time when they were, until it was handled poorly and the 'vampire' experience was diluted - like other monstrous races - to being little more than a different set of stats and mechanics which otherwise receives the same opportunities in life as others.
SolAndLuna wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:11 pm
... and there being no reasonable way to deal with one.
There are very many ways to deal with Dullahans (and other races) - the problems described here only shut down a couple of mechanics that represent a fraction of what very specific builds (not every build) are capable of.

They key issue behind this thread is not, primarily, the mechanics of the Dullahan, but the lack of understanding of how one addresses the exciting and unique challenges that something different possesses.

When people became aware of the prevalence of Vampires, they began to carry Holy weaponry. Which incidentally also works on Dullahans. This is the game working as intended, it's not a "build to win" scenario. If you are an adventurer chasing after a literal undead knight, in a life or death scenario, and you do not adequately prepare yourself for what you're about to face, you should expect to have a tough time.

SolAndLuna wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:11 pm
... since there's no reason someone couldn't have a dullahan or a group of them going around attacking people, with the others simply having to find some way around the lack of weaknesses.
Nor should there be. That group of Dullahans in this hypothetical scenario sounds like an evil enemy, creating a challenging conflict that drives the narrative for those whose characters' stories include challenges and adventures. This is an IC issue, which should be resolved ICly, by the IC community. We have eager heroes waiting for their chance to tackle bigger challenges. We have guards.

Perhaps the group of angry murdering Dullahans would finally shake up the IC community and force them to acknowledge that yes, Dullahans are dangerous and should be treated with the suspicion that Dev's lore entry on them suggests that they should be.

... So what actually needs to be 'fixed' here?

Like with Vampires before, we're facing another problem that is potentially about to be handled very poorly, and dilute a race with very unique traits and a very unique reputation into nothing more than a set of slightly different stats which are otherwise "JUST PEOPLE, MAN."

Issues with Monstrous Races should not be handled OOCly unless there is a very clear and glaring exploit (which in this case there is absolutely not, I will outline why momentarily) - the apprehension that you feel about fighting them is something that you should translate to IC, not OOC.

Correct. They're scary, they're tough. Correct, they could absolutely fold somebody if they didn't know what they were doing. Sounds almost like... They should be mistrusted, and watched closely... Just like their lore entry suggests...


+ Soul Rage: Cost: 3 M, Lasts 3 Rounds. Gain 3 Momentum immediately. Lose 10% of your HP at the start of every new round, and gain 3 Momentum - Now, depending on how the game's buffs interpret 'rounds' lately, you're either looking at a 9M or 6M return for your 3M investment, at the additional cost of between 180 (low HP margin, 2 following rounds) - 300 Hit Points (high HP margin, 3 following rounds). This lasts through any stuns, knockdowns or immobilization that are applied.

I don't see an issue with the above. It can be employed for extra burst damage over a short space of time. This is strong, and it's scary, I like that it's scary. You should really be running away from a raging dullahan and biding your time. Sun Tzu would be proud.

+ Interference Resistance: I don't agree that this needs to be changed. Cunning FP management is the only thing keeping Dullahans viable at all, 50% + Scaled SAN is very much fair. Applying to HP recovery as well is very strong, but then again - Dullahans can only heal themselves through their class innates (and Mayelia). The former point means that there are only very specific builds that are going to be a concern in that regard if, indeed, it even is a concern. Anyone can heal in a serious situation.

+ Mandatory Dullahan Armor: Mayelia should definitely not be changed. Bear in mind that a Dullahan's stun (contrary to popular belief) is not actually a stun, and doesn't incur the 50% damage reduction. For a race that essentially always goes last in combat, that heal is pretty much needed - and requires you to use a torso slot that 'could' be used for other wonderful things.

As Soul Rage can be used to cheese people under very, very specific circumstances where you play right into their hand... Soul Burn exposes the Dullahan to a significant amount of return pain.

( EDIT ) - As an addendum, Brent no longer exists as a game character, so the only stake I have in the Dullahan - and Monstrous Creatures - argument, is the experience and threat that they add to the broader narrative of the game.

Even when he was around, he was frequently arrested for raging at whatever triggered him. It isn't my fault that people chose to regard a seven foot tall half-rotted suit of armour (as per the profile description) as a big cuddly meme with antlers.

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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by Mewni » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:30 pm

Noxid wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:12 pm
Gonna chime in with a different perspective here that I don't think people may have considered. This is an Role playing game at the end of the day, it isn't supposed to be a balanced PvP game. Perhaps from a IC perspective they are supposed to be hard to take down? A big haunted suit of armour would logically be a harder fight than say a fluffy felidae. There is a precedent for this too, when people asked for shaitan nerfs dev stated that he wanted them to be scary and was quite light with the nerf.

The weakness Dullahan and other "monstrous" races should have is a social one, but people generally treat them like normal people rather than the freaks that they are. Something to considering anyway.
Then why visit a Balance Fu section of a forum if you don't care for the balancing of things and just shrug it off as it being a RP game? that also a thing you may consider.

IC perspective is: the players are the very few rare people that can actually tap in a lot of focus, and thus are superpowered beings. the playerbase is literally the "1%" so, no, i don't think Dullies are supposed to be super hard to take down even to the 1% of superstrong people.

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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by HexGirlBestGirl » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:20 am

Jupiter_Storm wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:35 pm
When people became aware of the prevalence of Vampires, they began to carry Holy weaponry. Which incidentally also works on Dullahans.
I'm sure this is a typo and all but I really want to point out that i'm 99.99% sure this is not the case as for that's what the entire main suggestion of this thread was. Just in case any thoughts were founded with this in mind.

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Noxid
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Re: Dullahans no weakness?

Post by Noxid » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:33 am

Mewni wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:30 pm

Then why visit a Balance Fu section of a forum if you don't care for the balancing of things and just shrug it off as it being a RP game? that also a thing you may consider.

IC perspective is: the players are the very few rare people that can actually tap in a lot of focus, and thus are superpowered beings. the playerbase is literally the "1%" so, no, i don't think Dullies are supposed to be super hard to take down even to the 1% of superstrong people.
A good question. Obviously I do care, otherwise why would I post? If you had taken the time to read my other reply rather than rushing to an aggressive response, you would have saw I stated that. It's a discussion forum where people share ideas. I wanted to offer my point of view. I could ask the same question of you and I'd imagine your answer would be quite the same.

While it is true that player characters are stronger than the average person you can still have stronger and weaker people within that 1% this also applies racially too.

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