Augmentive Dissonance

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HexGirlBestGirl
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Augmentive Dissonance

Post by HexGirlBestGirl » Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:14 am

Alright, alright. Stay with me on this one. But what if... we made Elemental Augment a toggle or something? Maybe as an additional skill or whatever. Just seems weird that, when combined with prolong, can potentially screw you over for far longer due to no active way to reduce or remove the elemental enchant in hand.

Which is cool, sure.

But not being able to toggle ele augment at the very least is something i'd like to have thought upon. Of course, i'm indifferent to if it gets changed or not. Just wanted it to be a suggestion but since that's balance related, HERE WE ARE.

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Grandpa
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Re: Augmentive Dissonance

Post by Grandpa » Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:30 pm

I would like to see this happen, yeah. I don't really like abilities where you either are getting a big boost or you're shooting yourself in the leg, there's never really any middle ground. I'd like the ability to turn it off just to not shoot myself in the leg.
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Re: Augmentive Dissonance

Post by Snake » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:52 pm

Could also be easily solved by receiving a 0M innate skill that dispells it whenever you are buffed with an augment. "Elemental Denial" or something.
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Re: Augmentive Dissonance

Post by Fern » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:03 pm

A toggle would be good. Being entirely screwed on a basic attacker for dedicating a skill slot to Elemental Augment and proccing resist then repeatedly losing momentum isn't exactly... the best thing.

It -used- to not drop (or give you) momentum until the change where On Hits using your weapon's hit rate happened. If it could go back to being on the neutral ground of not giving or dropping based on weak/resist procs, I'd very much prefer that though. Otherwise a toggle sounds fine to me.
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Re: Augmentive Dissonance

Post by Spoops » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:16 pm

Having it be a toggle would take a lot of the risk out of using the skill, which is inherently how it is balanced around its easy appliance of bloody palms currently, I'm not disagreeing fully with the changes presented but I am noting out this will clearly buff the skill in a pretty impactful way.

Edit: It only screws a basic attack out of duelists utilizing Fleur by the way, and that is if Fleur triggers, ultimately its anti-synergy with fleur and not basics.
Last edited by Spoops on Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Shujin
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Re: Augmentive Dissonance

Post by Shujin » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:28 pm

I am pretty sure Dev Said that he doesn't want those things to toggle, same as impure Element or Riposte as he wants things to have downsides and not basically be an answer to everything.
Thats why we find Toggle skills so rarely.

And honestly? I think thats for the better.

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Re: Augmentive Dissonance

Post by PantherPrincess » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:12 am

I don't think changing them to a toggle would be the best decision however adding a trait that can change your enchant at the cost of 1-3M with one in your skill pool would be okay in my books. And it would only work once for the whole match.
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Re: Augmentive Dissonance

Post by HexGirlBestGirl » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:06 pm

Well. I looked over all of this overall and took it allll in.

I managed to come up with a list so far of things for more consideration as well as some final thoughts. I'll probably address my thoughts on what everyone's said so far individually. But alas.

So! To start, Elementals in general are pretty simple of a thing. +X Ele ATK, +X Stat/Stat and -25% Anti-Ele Weakness.

Elemental Augment just makes it so 50% (or 250% of that 50% via Charge Mind and Elemental Overtime) of your Ele Atk is added to your on-hits.

With that, I shall begin to respond.
Snake wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:52 pm
Could also be easily solved by receiving a 0M innate skill that dispells it whenever you are buffed with an augment. "Elemental Denial" or something.
Considering that the elemental weakness comes into play often. You might not proc resist but you either have to build towards negating it, have the power of innate resistance via racials or just deal with taking extra damage overall in general. So I don't think allowing the actual elemental itself to be disabled or removed would be a good idea unless the downsides linger. Which at that point, as you can see. You'll probably have very little reason to remove it if the downsides linger in many cases.
Grandpa wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:30 pm
I would like to see this happen, yeah. I don't really like abilities where you either are getting a big boost or you're shooting yourself in the leg, there's never really any middle ground. I'd like the ability to turn it off just to not shoot myself in the leg.
This gave me a lingering idea. What if we make it so that, in tandem with what Snake said. A 0m innate skill that lets you put on Elemental Augment manually by letting out some of the elemental (thus reducing the effective value of it, both positively and negatively) in order to channel such an effect? I'unno how that'd go nor did I account for many things. Just wanted it on paper for now. That'd probably...equalize that feeling a bit?
Fern wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:03 pm
A toggle would be good. Being entirely screwed on a basic attacker for dedicating a skill slot to Elemental Augment and proccing resist then repeatedly losing momentum isn't exactly... the best thing.

It -used- to not drop (or give you) momentum until the change where On Hits using your weapon's hit rate happened. If it could go back to being on the neutral ground of not giving or dropping based on weak/resist procs, I'd very much prefer that though. Otherwise a toggle sounds fine to me.
Not making resists or weaknesses matter does sound like a very good thing. My main issue is just that you have like, only one self-induced way to remove the elemental from yourself so if you auto enchant, you have to suffer the effects of having high levels of Prolong. (See: 8 Rounds max, 4 Rounds Minimum with 1 level of Prolong) Whether you want it or not. Meaning it's extended suffering for overall picking the talent in general. Also, i'm unsure of if basic attackers get entirely screwed from using it. But it's noticeable overall, especially on Duelist mains. I can't vouch for how much though but it never felt entirely polarizing.
Spoops wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:16 pm
Having it be a toggle would take a lot of the risk out of using the skill, which is inherently how it is balanced around its easy appliance of bloody palms currently, I'm not disagreeing fully with the changes presented but I am noting out this will clearly buff the skill in a pretty impactful way.

Edit: It only screws a basic attack out of duelists utilizing Fleur by the way, and that is if Fleur triggers, ultimately its anti-synergy with fleur and not basics.
As I stated above earlier. My only issue with this essentially is that i'd like more control in general since it's one thing to use it for the benefits and downsides in general. That's fine. But Prolong forcibly, one way or another extending such a thing in tandem with this seems a bit iffy. Beyond that, this seems about what i've concluded as well. If a way were to exist to actually be able to toggle the ability, i'd rather it be limited or have a downside to it as well, personally. I do acknowledge that there's some risk to using Elementals. Yet, having such risk extended due to the choosing of the talent without some form of mitigation or opting-out just seems....strange? I can also attest that in some cases, the loss of momentum can be minimal. Sometimes not. Depends on classes and all that.

So yeah.
Shujin wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:28 pm
I am pretty sure Dev Said that he doesn't want those things to toggle, same as impure Element or Riposte as he wants things to have downsides and not basically be an answer to everything.
Thats why we find Toggle skills so rarely.

And honestly? I think thats for the better.
That's understandable. Impure Element can give you up to +60 Ele ATK but you take 30 Damage with every cast. Which if you don't have the HP Regen (or are interferred), then that can easily stack up and be your demise. Riposte can get you hurt by damage-on-hit effects as well as help enemies trigger certain things. Also, there's quite a few toggle skills to my knowledge. But i'll probably talk about Riposte and other memes later in another forum post.

My issue is just with Prolong and its interaction with Elementals, with Ele Augment in general being the main thing. I'm still fine with things getting more downsides if it means being able to manage the extension and its penalties from Prolonging overall. How we'll get there isn't still concrete in my mind.
PantherPrincess wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:12 am
I don't think changing them to a toggle would be the best decision however adding a trait that can change your enchant at the cost of 1-3M with one in your skill pool would be okay in my books. And it would only work once for the whole match.
If it keeps the active duration rather than refreshing it of your current enchant but can't be used until Round 2 or 3, then that's fine by me. Otherwise, then Prolong would just be used to check resistances of people and if they see it, or see a certain damage type, just swap out to try and counter or take a risk and such with resistances and what elements the other side has.

So some kind of limit on that to prevent immediate or last second swaps to prevent from getting super fucked seems fine. Although i'm iffy on that one as well. Since that seems a bit too wonky for balance in the long-term.


So. To tl;dr all of that.

I'm sketchy on making it a toggle as well, since elementals in general have risk and should keep it no matter what. Being a basic attacker won't make it overly polarizing if you proc resist as for it's just -1m but the value of that is based on your class combos. 1m moves and Fleur exist after all.

I'm all for getting more control over things if you do decide to go and add duration to your elemental via prolong even if it means downsides.

My current thoughts for a solution are as such: Just make Elemental Augment have to be manually used as a skill, maybe for 1m or 3m. Not 2m. Maybe even 6M and just make Elemental Augment 75% or 100% at the base, but that might get out of control. So preferably 1 or 3m. This'll reduce the effects of the elemental since you'll be focusing to apply its effects more to your weapon than you. So less weakness and statistical bonuses and Elemental ATK. Or hell, maybe it can even consume the remaining duration of the Elemental and apply it as a skill to your weapons for that same duration.

That way, Action Economy and acknowledgement of using the thing in general. You keep the weaknesses, but you have an option to rid of your prolonged elemental for utilizing it on your weapon. Of course, you can't use any other elementals during this duration. That way, you can't just cheese and have elemental augment on your weapon, and just use another elemental in the meantime. Downsides and risks and all that.


That's all.

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