[v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

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HexGirlBestGirl
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[v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

Post by HexGirlBestGirl » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:55 pm

Today, i'm here to talk about something out there that's a bit of a remnant of a special attack. Yeah. That's right.

Skyshot.
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Skyshot is a move that can only be used on flying monsters or airborne enemies as a whole. All it does? A simple basic attack that has +100 Critical added to it. Sounds neat, right? But let's enhance our focus on that image before.

What's that? Oh no... that's not right... it costs five momentum to use??? 5M. Five.

Skyshot is rarely used outside of PvE or simply absolute poor strategy or planning on the enemies side in PvP. Why, you might ask? Because it's nigh impossible to land due to how the action economy works. Let's do some math, shall we? I'll start by giving you a an almost full list of ways to even begin to get the enemy airborne and then explaining why each action is far too unrealistic to even net Skyshot with unless you're in Stylish.

Those that are highlighted in Red are a no-go or reliant on starting with 8m+, Triggering an Elemental Weakness or Stylish.
Those that are highlighted in green are a valid combo for it with no shenanigans needed Simple 1-2-3.
Yellow is either an uncertain one or a really iffy one that 'technically' can work to allow getting Skyshot off with under specific conditions.

To prevent overloading the space of this entire topic, feel free to click the spoilers for all the detail on why they're that and not.

(Spoilers: 90% of it is just gonna be 'Because the action economy literally doesn't allow for it so it's not even a valid option to begin with' unless you're a Duelist for Riposte or a Duelist for Fleur (not mandatory btw) as well as 'Airborne ends when a turn changes' but there's more there. If you care about that or my thoughts on it.)

Now, the LIST.
  • Lift Off, 3M
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Lift Off is simple. You play a Firebird. You pressy press the button. It launches an enemy. Boom. They get launched into the air. Although, as with what was defined here, this has three primary issues.
  • Firebird is a Duelist Class that primarily focuses on the having of a Spear. No, really. Look.
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    So while not an overly big deal, you have to willingly give up 2H to offhand a Bow as well in order to get the full value of the Skyshot Combo.
  • Secondly, it's 3M. You start with 7M. If you get a Crit Riposte before your upcoming turn and have Fleur, you start with 9M. Skyshot being 5M means that you either end up with 9M - 3M (Lift off) = 6M - 5M (Skyshot) = 1M or 8M - 3M (Liftoff) = 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = Turn over. Of course, you'll be left with 1M if you Critical with the weapon you didn't Riposte with.

    There is no other possible way to combo it into Skyshot without having landed a Crit on Riposte (or something like Silent Spirit) or just being on Stylish. Or I guess Elemental Weakness triggering. Although 6 Scaled SAN on almost every race makes the elemental weaknesses nigh impossible to trigger. Since they either start with less than -25% or start exactly at it to which 6 Scaled SAN makes it -24% and thus illegible to trigger Ele Weakness Momentum Gaining, even if the damage is ramped up. Of course, certain exceptions do apply but still. I'm more pointing out it's a rarity without something like Null Shell or Eresh/River Sword shenanigans.

    All while having to give up your 2H Bonus or forcibly spec into Close Shot to not have your accuracy driven hard into the ground as give up spears for the entire Firebird Class or make it an item belt swap. All of which aren't favorable in the slightest. Of course, you can just use Lift Off while they're not within one range of you. But sometimes that's not a viable option as far as comboing into Skyshot without the penalty goes. But technically, it can be and thus. Gotta mention it.
  • Finally, at the end of the day, Skyshot is still a basic attack. This means that anything that applies to basics naturally interact with it, as well as the close range penalty and farshot penalty. You could just set up Hexer Curses to get half of the value on ALL of your basics within one turn for a good 3-4 rounds if someone doesn't cleanse or lower it by glykinism or something. +25 Crit per Curse Inflicted while also having one curse able to just negate any evasive issues in general.

    Or you know. Spend all this time trying to combo tightly into a simple basic attack with such a troublesome requirement for +100 Crit on a single attack that is, otherwise, no different than just kicking someone up into the air and basic 3M attacking.
  • Corvis Cannon's On-Hit Effect
Corvis Cannon. Woah boy, you shooty shoot someone and it puts black feathers on them for 3 rounds. Any wind damage during this time pushes them up and airborne into the sky. This is an iffy one since technically, yes. You can nail a Skyshot combo with this.
You can easily do it just by using Raging Flame from Lantern Bearer to deal nearby wind damage on round start then just go first. But how else are you going to do residue Wind Damage that costs less? That and i'm unsure of what happens if you don't go first. Since Airborne Status effects tend to end when turns switch.

So it technically is possible, but you know. Consistency. But yeah. Corvis Cannon and a Bow has to be equipped, while also having mandatory LB for Raging Flame for that method. I'unno any other methods off the top of my head.

If you go Duelist/LB , then you can just Shoot Corvis Cannon > Typhur > Enemy Turn > Next Round > Your Turn > Raging Flame Pushes Enemy Up if within range > Skyshot (7M - 5M = 2M , 3M if Crit, 4M if Fleur) > Whatever else you wanna do. This is a valid combo, yes.

And while rare, technically Wind Elemental Weakness can also make this more valid.
  • Rising Tide, 3M
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Rising Tide. Oh boy. Where do I begin with this one. I swear, i'm feeling like i'm gonna be repeating myself here again. That's gonna happen a lot.
No, seriously. I'm going to probably repeat myself.
3M, Subject to Martial Lawbreaker Clauses. Yet. Combo Fighter requires you to use other skills before it to lower the cost to 2M or 1M. Skyshot is 5M which means you'd need to start with 8M or 9M in order to actually combo into this.

After all. 8M - 3M (Rising Tide) = 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = 0M , 1M if Crit , another +1M if Elemental Weakness. You've done it. You've nailed the combo once again by starting with 8M and severely doing nothing special other than a basic attack with +100 Critical to it. Only with Rising Tide, it's mandatory to have it be within 1 Range unless you have 0M movement away. (See: Enemy Climb into Winged Serpent away into Skyshot) So. Y'know. Repeat process.
  • Gravestone, 3M
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Gravestone? Ghost skill. Knocks the enemy airborne and deals damage while also pushing them back a tile and even giving you double damage from your Claret Call. Even makes your Wraithguards not die as hard. Pretty multi-facet skill. Automatic Duelist Tier.
Yeehaw. Let's get to it. It's 3M. You know what happens. Skyshot is 5M. Oh no. Deja Vu?

You normally start with 7M in most circumstances. 7M - 3M (Gravestone) = 4M! 4M -5M (Skyshot) = -1M and that's a no-no. HOWEVER. In the rare instance you do proc Earth Weakness for whatever god forsaken reason. Even though only really Papilions have Earth Weakness innately and even then, there's a stamp to give +1% Earth Res which'll prevent the weakness proc.

Then it'd be 7M - 3M (Gravestone) = 4M + 1M (Elemental Weakness) = 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = 0M , 1M if Crit, 2M if Fleur.

Come on, you already know this means you'll have to just start with 8M or more again or trigger the horrifically rare Earth Weakness. Possible but far too unrealistic. But possible.
  • Crashing Bull, 3M
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Crashing Bull. DH Skill. Matador Stance. Darkness Damage skill. Can only be used while airborne. Nice, easy, simple. Nice synergy with Eresh. Of course. Knocks things airborne as well. Still iffy as all hell.
Let's talk about the immediate issue. This isn't like the other skills. Oh no, no, no. This one requires you to be AIRBORNE to use!!! That's right! You need some forethought about this one, people. Usually, it costs 1m at the bare minimum to get airborne. Barring Enemy Climb, of course.

Crashing Bull? 3M Skill. No problem. You know the equation. 7M - 1M (Gain Air, Agile Accel, Burn Up, etcetc) = 6M - 3M (Crashing Bull) = 3M, 4M (Ele Weakness: Dark) - 5M (Shyshot) = -2M , -1M if Ele Weakness. That's not right! Oh nonono.

However, with enemy climb. 7M - 0M (Leaping Lizard;Enemy Climb) = 7M - 3M (Crashing Bull) = 4M, 5M (Ele Weakness: Dark) - 5M (Skyshot) = 0M , 1M if Crit. Once more, you're subjected to having to start with more than 7M or Trigger an Elemental Weakness.

Noticing a pattern yet? Become subjected to being a Duelist or already suffer the consequences of Skyshot not existing essentially.
  • Air Shaft Producers (Namely Dragon Gale (3M), but Mare Wing (3M) technically also applies.)
Oh boy. This one's gonna be fun. Since this is the time i've most reliably and most often seen Skyshot to begin with. Since Air Shafts are lingering airborne kinds. Yeah, that's right. Air Shafts are tasty, kids.
Air Shafts are tile effects you place down through very few means and when someone stands on them, enemy or ally, they become airborne as long as they're over it. This means that if you have a way to put the enemy over them and then start your turn with them over them (that's not of their own doing, but that counts too) then guess what! They're already airborne even if you start with 7M!!!

That means you can instantly start with the 5M move, Skyshot! 7M! MINUS! 5M! Equals! 2M! 3M on crit, that's enough for a whole other action! Even without being a Duelist! Without Fleur! Oh my god! You actually get to use Skyshot and not feel like you're forced into being a Duelist or something or breaking the action economy or really relying on the elemental weaknesses procs. It's just a simple 1: Enemy is over air shaft at start of your turn, 2: Shoot, 3: Crit. Glorious.

Although, the issue arises. Do you know how hard it is to get an enemy to start their turn on an air shaft without willingly doing so? If you go first and set the air shafts that way, Mare Wing sets it under you. Dragon Gale sets it under its entire path, including the target it hits. That means the enemy has an entire turn to just move and just like that, you lose your opportunity.

If you go first and skip, the enemy can just skip back. Congratulations. Back to square one.

So tell me. How do you get your desired target to be on the air shaft that you so seek? The answer is simple. You have an ally to push them over there, since you clearly want to net that sick Skyshot. But what if they benefit from that? Get fucked, I guess.

But yes. Amazing. Truly.
  • Riser, 1M
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Riser. Likely the easiest method to landing Skyshot. 1m method to knock someone airborne. Only costs 2 Magical Feathers which are not hard to gather. Wonderful. Really not much to say about this.
Step 1: Riser the enemy.
Step 2: Skyshot the enemy.
Step 3: Check your mathematical equation. 7M - 1M (Riser) = 6M - 5M (Skyshot) = 1M , 2M if Crit , 3M if Fleur
Step 4: Realize you still follow the trend of being Duelist at the base or getting fucked out of easier mode Skyshot Combos.
Step 5: You've successfully Skyshot in a valid combo.
  • Swooping Strike, 3M
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An absolutely cursed move. Swooping Strike. An airborne strike that swoops you down from Point A to Point B and knocking all enemies airborne that get hit along the way. Now that's what I call mobility, baby. Although...it's an autohit.
It's 3M and an Autohit. Requires a spear to use. Requires you to be AIRBORNE. You literally can't crit with it for momentum, and Pierce Weakness???? HAH. PIERCE WEAKNESS??? So here's what you're left with. Having started with 8m+ already.

After all. You already know the formula. Although, you must question. How do you get airborne first? Riser? Riser. Enemy Climb? Enemy Climb. Gain Air? Gain Air. Burn Up? Burn Up. Agile Accel? Agile Accel. Cool. All but one of those are 1m.

7M - 1M (Airborne Meme) = 6M - 3M (Swooping Strike) = 3M - 5M (Skyshot) = No Skyshot, give up.

8M - 1M (Airborne Meme) = 7M - 3M (Swooping Strike) = 4M - 5M (Skyshot) = No Skyshot, give up.

9M - 1M (Airborne Meme) = 8M - 3M (Swooping Strike) = 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = Congratulations, you managed to get Skyshot by landing a Fleur Riposte beforehand. Epic.

Amazing, ain't it? Truly amazing.
  • Raijinken, 3M
Alright. You see Swooping Strike above me? That guy has nothing on what i'm about to show you. Check this out.

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Raijinken. 3M Move (only with a Katana, 4M otherwise) on a Duelist Promo named Kensei. Knocks you and the target both airborne. You have to be within 1 Range or Combo into it from another Kensei Skill if you want more range via the AoE Kensei Combo. Seems fine, right? Of course. But nonono. This one is gonna be super tricky.

Raijinken is also one of the only skills to explain exactly how Airborne works in the description.
So. On paper, yes. It's literally just Rising Tide. Literally everything I said about Rising Tide can be applied here. Just remove the stuff about combo fighter.

7M - 3M (Katana Raijinken) = 4M - 5M (Skyshot) = No-go. It can't crit. Thus making it reliant on you having already crit on a riposte or silent spirit, so on, so on.

It also has to be within one range unless you spend another 3M or even 4M before it to get the AoE Combo Effect. Raijinken, when combo'd into from another Kensei Skill knocks everything in a 3(?) Range Diamond upwards and does the same attack to them all as well. That means you have to mandatorily spend, at the bare minimum, 6M in order to not combo into Skyshot outside of 1 Range OR They can also jump back with Flottement. I sure could've mentioned this a lot of times.

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If they trigger evasion, after you've critical riposted them before hand. You can indeed, combo into Skyshot without the Kensei Combo Effect.

Watch.

8M (Riposte Crit, No Fleur) - 3M (Raijinken, Katana) = 5M , They Flottement Backwards a step then 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = No Close Range Skyshot Combo Confirmed. 0M, 1M if Crit. Real epic. We're doing big boy math here.

But you're still shoehorned into being Duelist or not caring. As well as Dual-wielding and also riposting.
  • Point Kick, 3M
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Pointo Kickeru. Point. Kick. You literally fucking KICK the target into the air. Powerful. Yeah. It's 3M. Now, technically Chimera Style can allow you to combo into this for 2M but you know why that's irrelevant. It follows the same issues that Rising Tide also has.
It has you mandatorily in One Range and relying on Flotte to get them away, it can't crit, and it relies on you having 8M or more beforehand in order to actually land the combo.

Let's do the usual math. Repetition, baby.

7M - 3M (Point Kick) = 4M - 5M (Skyshot) = No-Go

8M (Riposte Crit) - 3M (Point Kick) = 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = 0M , 1M if Crit

9M (Riposte Fleur Crit) - 3M (Point Kick) = 6M - 5M (Skyshot) = 1M, 2M if Crit.

Now, that's the usual. But what if. You attempted to combo via Chimera Style? With 9M, of course.

9M - 3M (Rapid Kick, I guess) = 6M, 7M (Ele Weakness: Ice + Greaves) - 2M (Point Kick) = 4M, 5M (See: Weakness) - 5M (Skyshot) = No-Go or Turn Endo

8M - 3M (Rapid Kick) = 5M - 2M (Point Kick) = 3M - 5M (Skyshot) = Yeah, no.

I think you get the point here.
  • Crane Hop, 2M
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Crane Hop. A wonderful skill. This is how I get my powerful warrior combos sometimes. You jump into the air, if it hits a target, they become Airborne instead of you. 2M. Powerful. So.
It's simple. 7M. Target the target. 7M - 2M (Crane Hop) = 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = 0M, 1M if Crit, 2M if Fleur, +1 more momentum if you proc'd Ele Weakness!

That's literally it. You've combo'd into Skyshot with no issue. No Duelist Required. No forced weapon having required.
  • Explosion, 3M (But you can't remotely do anything with this, but it's applicable I guess.)
You literally make a big ass explosion. When it detonates at the start of a new round, the enemy goes airborne if you're enchanted with Nerhaven and gets knocked back. Then they land. So. But it makes you go airborne. Food for thought.
  • Winged Spearstrike, 3M
It's a bit hard for me to get a screenshot of this one, mostly due to laziness. But Winged Spearstrike basically is the ability of the Winged Spear. You toss it, it hits people with the spear and knocks them airborne. Of course, that has issues too.
First off! It's an autohit. Does Wind Damage. So you're already out of the fray without having the 8m+ Starter Clause or hitting an elemental weakness on Wind. (Hyattr mains...get fucked.) You already know what comes next.

7M - 3M (Winged Spearstrike) = 4M - 5M (Skyshot) = No Go.

7m - 3M (Winged Spearstrike) = 5M (Weakness Proc) - 5M (Skyshot) = Yay?

8M (Riposte Crit) - 3M (Winged Spearstrike) = 5M - 5M (Skyshot) = Cool. 0M, 1M if CritRiposte required.

8M (Riposte Crit) - 3M (Winged Spearstrike) = 6M (Weakness Proc) - 5M (Skyshot) = 1M , 2M if Crit. Amazing.

9M (Riposte Fleur) -3M (Winged Spearstrike) = 6M - 5M (Skyshot) = 1M, 2M if Crit. Epic.

9M (Riposte Fleur) - 3M (Winged Spearstrike) = 7M (Weakness Proc) - 5M (Skyshot) = 2M , 3M if Crit. SUPER COOL.

Reliant on Riposte or Elemental Weakness Triggering as always. Typical.

So with all of that out of the way. It's clear to see how hard and tedious and unfair at times it can be to land Skyshot. It's a special attack that offers an admittedly great critical bonus but. For the action economy that it holds as well as the classes that have the access to the easiest ability to make someone airborne while also comboing into Skyshot, it just doesn't seem right that this is the only real unusable on-frequent Special Attack currently granted by the trait.

So. Time to propose le change. What change, you ask? Simple. The first and obvious one... All of this can be solved by a literal simple change. Just make it 4M and only have an increased like, 25 or 50 Crit instead. That's really all you gotta do and this'll see far more usage than it does now. Just lowering it by one mere momentum and reducing the severe bonus to Crit it gives as a result of making it more usable.

Since it's hardly important of how good it is for the bonus when the requirements to use it makes it have to be borderline painstakingly inferior to just not using it due to class and gear requirements.

Second!
If the first is not good enough or even too worrying for some due to how it could potentially just turn into a more momentum consuming shot for more crit. Simply change it entirely to something. Like a hipfire or quick shot that takes less momentum (2m) but does 75% less damage and has 50% less hit or something. If it has more momentum to cost, it should have more gain from it. If it has less momentum, it should have less of a benefit as a result.

Of course, put that shit on a 3 turn cooldown or something. Doesn't sound like the best suggestion for me, personally but i'm sure it'll provide food for thought for someone out there to expand upon. Just a little something quick to get it rolling.

tl;dr: Skyshot sucks, is hard to combo into without abnormal class combos or giving up meaty bonuses for the sake of building around it which tends to be inferior to just not building around it and making a proper Archer Build. So change it from 5M to 4M and reduce the critical bonus from 100 to 25 or 50 or just change it entirely aka remove it.

Thanks for reading, I guess.


BONUS ROUND!!!

Points to whoever can tell me all the times and ways they've used Skyshot outside of PvE or haven't regretted it and combo'd into it! Knowledge is power, and knowing how the absolute hell you're using this skill is pivotal to how--or even if it needs to be changed.

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Re: [v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

Post by K Peculier » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:00 pm

buff bows
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Re: [v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

Post by Spoops » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:38 pm

Bows are plenty strong, but Skyshot is basically useless, I'd rather trade its sheer numbers for usability instead.

Instead of +100% critical strike chance on a weapon that already statistically hits REALLY high critical numbers already, why not instead make it cost 3 momentum and do an additional effect to airborne enemies? Like knock them back a very large distance and/or knock them down.
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Re: [v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

Post by Aqua » Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:17 pm

I'm all for having skyshot cost 3M to be honest. The skill itself is pretty eh altogether. It doesn't work on many things besides that one flying fireblood mob. It's pretty much useless as spo said.
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Re: [v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

Post by PantherPrincess » Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:20 pm

I'm with Spo. Lower the momentum cost and I personally would like to see it instead inflict an effect like so: Piercing Fracture - "-10 armor & -10 defense for 3 rounds." or maybe something with a guard break effect included but Lance does that already.
Last edited by PantherPrincess on Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

Post by Fern » Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:22 pm

The last time I saw this get used was years ago, I'm actually not joking...

I think that making it 3M and knock down on hit works. Or get 50% more critical damage, instead of crit chance.
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Re: [v.2.19b] Let's Pierce the Skies (Skyshot)

Post by Shujin » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:33 am

I believe I have pointed out the weirdness of 5 M moves before.

This move can technically only be used after cranehopping on someone (or riser I guess) and then you are facing with bow hit penalty for close range like crazy. Skyshot really is one of those moves thats just flat out unuseable in an yreasonable way.

So yeaaaaah, something instead and/or making it a 3 M move or at the very least 4 M, makes it useable.

I guess lower the overall crit gain, add crit damage, and its fine? (As 4 or 3 M move so you can actually combo into it?)
Knockback/Down is also fine. or something unique? Maybe enhanced damage for your next bow attack?

I have no real opinion on it, just know that this skill is actually in useful levels down there with Insulate, if not worse.


I still think Airborne in general could need an overhaul, to make it more meaningful in a fight to add tactical layers of team play.

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