Let's talk 10 stars.

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Perdition
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Let's talk 10 stars.

Post by Perdition » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:28 pm

Alright, it's no secret that not all 10 stars are created equally. That's fine--after all, it's impossible. In a game such as this, some options will always be better than others. However, the power disparity, especially of items within the same rarity or tier, does not need to be this egregious.

One of the biggest offenders of this is Pillawag. Now, I also have no issue with some 10 stars designed purposefully not to be 'meta' or meant to fit easily in many builds. However, I think the tradeoff is that they should be interesting by themselves. They should be something to build around, rather than to fit in your build.

As it stands, Pillawag deletes special tiles and prevents new ones from spawning in a single 3 tile line in front of you. This is an absolute joke, honestly. This is a 10 star exclusive to a boss, but meanwhile you have weapons like Tarnada that was once metagame shaping, and is currently still quite strong that drops off a Jammer Delta.

Pillawag does not need to be at that level, but it could stand to be far more interesting. I'll give some examples/ideas of what I mean with weapons I think are the biggest offenders, including Pillawag.

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  • Pillawag: Could steal/claim enemy special tiles in a 3x3 or perhaps even 4x4 range in front of you. This would also be its attack range, and its scaling could remain at 85% as a tradeoff for such powerful utility and wide range.
  • Jarmor: Gives you Jammer charges based on UL upon battle start. Every time you take a melee attack, you split off a jammer copy of yourself and reduce a charge. The copy has a fraction of your HP and stats and can be controlled or set automated like any other minion. Could give it either jammer alpha or omega skills, idk which is weaker.
  • Leviathan Amulet: Change the resist into absorb since umbrellas exist and can get 2-3x as much resist in the same slot anyway. Also grants a skill called Sea Dragon's Roar. Absorbing water damage gives you X charges equal to the damage absorbed. You can use Sea Dragon's Roar to shoot out a line shaped beam of water that passes through enemies and damages all either equal to the damage absorbed or a portion of it, whichever is more balanced.
  • Fox Paws: No big changes here, just grant it a skill that allows you to create a Seeker Flame (max of 1 active at a time) that has a LV equal to UL x 5 (max of 60.).
  • Gigantys: On Miss: a 3x3 or so circular AoE around you that deals damage based off UL that maybe also knocks down. Keeps current effect in addition.
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Now, there are other 10 stars that are definitely not up to par, but I think those can be fixed with number tweaks rather than reworks. I'm sure some of my ideas missed the mark either entirely or just a bit, but these are just meant to be examples of ways you can make these vendor bait 10 stars more interesting.

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Re: Let's talk 10 stars.

Post by SolAndLuna » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:44 pm

I'll just leave my opinion on each of them here, I think.

Pillawag: If you're going to make it deal a basic attack to the entire range of the tile steal, it may be a good idea to keep the range a bit lower than 3x3, lower scaling or not - people can still find ways to get a decent amount of damage out of that, and moves like Scarlet Twister and Forced Move exist to effectively hit entire teams with a basic attack by yourself, which might be a bit troublesome with something like Ghost. Alternatively, simply make the tile steal a skill, maybe, or just an effect that can be done on top of the smaller range of a normal attack. The idea of taking ownership of special tiles sounds neat, though, and possibly really useful against certain kinds of opponents.

Jarmor: I don't think it should be changed quite so drastically. The main reason people don't use the Jarmor is simply that it's almost always a one-time damage nullification in exchange for an armor slot that could be taken up by armors with far better stats (it has basically nothing for either armor stat or evade, using it almost always means you're taking hits pretty hard). So, personally, I'd suggest simply raising at least one of the stats slightly (seeing how it's considered to be unarmored, likely evade) and provide either a skill to restore the barrier, or an armor effect that would automatically restore it after 1-3 rounds, whatever is considered to be more or less balanced.

Leviathan Amulet: Well, here we go... Personally, I think you might have given a bit too much to this thing in your suggestion.
First off, define "absorb" in this case? As in, take no damage from the attack, and recover 12% of the damage it would have dealt? Or simply take 88% of the damage and then heal 12%? If it's the former, I'd like to note that the Red Letter and the Circle Ring both come with huge flaws on top of their absorb effects, and even any null effects have a huge detriment attached to them, so unless the Leviathan Amulet is also given one, it seems like it'd be far too beneficial, especially now when people have readily accessible water damage spells. If it's the latter, then it might be better to simply increase the resistance to be twice as much as it is now and call it a day.
On top of that, the skill you've suggested on top of that seems excessive at that point, considering that it's... well, an accessory. Not all that many accessories have both a (somewhat) powerful passive effect and a built-in skill, unless the effect is mandatory for the skill to function in any meaningful way.
Alternatively, it might be okay to simply make the Leviathan Amulet give 1+UL% HP and FP for each enemy, rather than just 1+UL. A 13% heal for defeating an enemy is fairly powerful in a team fight, or against someone that relies on things like youkai or engineer bots to beat you. Having one on would also give sufficient reason to target Wraithguards for some people, potentially. I will immediately note, however, that this may also be too powerful in either PvE or PvP depending on the person, and it would cause some problems for something like Papilions, for example.

Fox Paws: Not much to say, I think the idea's decent enough. Just give them the same or similar Seeker Flame skill that the Firefox has.

Gigantys: I'd be extremely careful with giving something like knockdown when missing an attack, it's a really quick way to open up options for people to intentionally miss with a Sidecut and then use an autohit move while completely ignoring any and all potential evasion that way. Or worse, opening up their opponent to something like Execute every single turn. There's options that can do something similar already, definitely, but they usually require a bit of preparation and/or luck to reliably use, while this would be an autohit for something similar, unless you limited it purely to missing with a standard basic attack.


Granted, these suggestions generally come from someone that would want these 10* items to be both unique and somewhat useful in a build. Aside from maybe the Pillawag or the Fox Paws, though, I genuinely don't think that completely reworking the items is the way to make them more interesting or wide-spread. A lot of them have decently interesting gimmicks attached to them already, it's simply that they don't have enough benefit to be used normally.

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Re: Let's talk 10 stars.

Post by RedtailPinny » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:37 pm

Even with the ability to make a seeker flame, Fox Paw is never going to see any use over a pair of resist boots, ogatas, thunderhooves or heck, even NO SHOES from agile mechs, that's how bad they are now, and that's how bad they'll still be even with seeker flame.

Personally, I'd like to see them get something in line with their cinder abilities. I had a fleeting thought of having them give fire resistance (25 or 30%, static roll), and maybe giving them a special passive that converts all your kick skills into fire damage. But I'm not sure entirely.

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Shujin
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Re: Let's talk 10 stars.

Post by Shujin » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:35 am

Fox Paws: I agree with Pinny here, they are kinda lame even with a seeker flame summon skill that wouldn't change.
-Give it some fire resist (20ish so its not always better than resist boots)
-On using "Kick" skill Summon a seeker flame?
-changing kick skills to fire is actually a cool idea, Fire Verglas go? Would make it quite unique. Maybe just some additional fire bonus damage on kick skills.

Gigantys: Honestly, I feel it could just need a little extra scaling, or some armor penetration on its special attack to be viable enough, its a fun sword but it lacks a bit of "OMPH" behind its 4m basic attacks. boss 10* in general should be a bit stronger in my opinion.

Jarmor: Was never good, even back in the day, but atleast was used there for certain Rush builds. Nowadays its generally just bad, goes terrible together with Barrier tattoo and its effect can often be ignored by some very accesable multihits. It certainly aged to be even worse that it has been. Something to recover its shield, or better stats in general would do it well. Its lacking on many fronts.

I have no spieal opinion on the rest, they are kinda niche, but the levi amulet for example is great for braindead grinded..Could probably do with more water resist I guess. Pillawag I have never really seen used, guess it could need a buff too.

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Re: Let's talk 10 stars.

Post by Snake » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:44 pm

Pillawag:
SKI and VIT scaling, making it total 110% SWA. The effect is fine as it is.

Jarmor:
Grants Jammer Shield every round start, or when you take Water or Acid damage, but Ice Damage will inflict Chilled, which will disable Jarmor's effects.
Gigantys:
On-Attack: Increases Hit by Ancient Fury's LV * UL.
On-Hit: Removes Ancient Fury and inflicts Worn Out on you and your target equal to UL*2.
On-Miss: Grants or increases Ancient Fury's LV by 1, which turns Gigantys' attack into a diamond-shaped AoE equal to Ancient Fury's LV. Does not activate if you are Worn Out.
Leviathan Amulet:
On-Kill: 1+UL% HP/FP recovery.
Fox Paw:
Every odd round start: Summons a Seeker Flame.
If Seeker Flame is defeated: Recovers HP and FP equal to UL*2.
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