Changes that could be made to engineer

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FaeLenx
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Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 am

Changes that could be made to engineer

Post by FaeLenx » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:45 am

I've been running an engineer build that has become at least acceptable in combat while featuring engineer skills prominently in its usage, but I've tried numerous builds that didn't work while I tried to shoehorn them in as much as possible. So, without asking for the parts of my current build that work to work better, here are some ideas that would make engineer a better build option for other classes now that it's seeing some attention elsewhere.

Though the buffs planned for it are very exciting, I find they don't address the more prominent issues with engineers and instead make the existing strengths (jetpack upgrade, etc) better.

Before addressing problems, I'll state the problems.

Bots and effective threat range:

The meta currently revolves around high mobility. Most builds have an effective threat range of an entire map distance of dealing at least some respectable damage, and bots are often left in the dust with this or cut effectively short. A medcopter can, in a turn, heal an ally up to 4 tiles away and a metalaegis can grant protection to an ally up to 7 away or put a reflect tile under an ally around six tiles away. A turret has a much more prominent threat range with increasing its AoE bullet spray.

FP costs:

Without any tools to gain FP, you're either relying on another class that has them or you're running dry quickly. A full level electro shield will run you 27 FP, getting 2 bots on the field will run you 100, upgrading an ally will run you 15, grenades and jetpack both 15. In two turns of combat, you burn through approximately 172 FP. Which means you're going to need to invest in will or spend a lot of time generating FP elsewhere. The best FP generating classes don't synergize well with mechanic's strengths. Offhanding a gun as a monk or duelist will do nothing but hinder you. As a MG/Engineer, I used a lot of vampire shell. As a ST/Engineer, I use blue steal and energy laundry a lot. With evoker gaining a 3m 150 FP generation, engineer having nothing but scraps to increase its capability in singular fights hurts it slightly. Especially since you are required to run over the scrap to gain an effective 25 focus.

Axe/Gun specified skills:

I would be legitimately surprised if any engineer has ever included bashfix into their build for any reason other than the lack of bashfix being a reasonable skill to include in a build. It's 3 momentum, only cures engineer devices, and requires an investment of an axe in your build. You can argue that a wrench is an axe, but you could also argue that a wrench is a worthless weapon with no bonuses (if it was modified to be an engineer's go to weaponcessory, that would be neat). It might be a thing with the new bot coming out if it didn't require an axe. That's all that there is to say on that.

Gun skills have the problem of low scaling on guns in general. The only way to get anything out of this is to mutate other weapons into guns. Which is what I do now. It changes grenade from a 1m filler into a threat. But these have a problem better listed separately... A heavy investment into skill is not entirely too important for engineer abilities, and so this is only really an option if you go MG/Engineer and even then performs rather poorly due to requiring so many different stats to get up damage and efficacy.

Elemental Damage Types:

With no way to enchant away your fire damage, you'll run into that resist message very quickly. Flamethrower and grenade launcher are (soon to be, in flamethrower's case) good skills, but there exist more ways to resist or absorb fire damage than any other element, some of which can be done blindly if you are one of a couple classes or care to carry a red letter on your belt. As they both require significant build investment to be good (a mutated gun is rarely good for a MG) and fire being tied to strength which has only a pair of guns scaling poorly with it.


Jetpack doesn't leave you airborn:

It's a 1m movement. Engineer has no real synergy with airborn or most classes that have synergy with airborn. The only time this ever comes up being a problem is for upgrades on DH's and the like who seem to think it leaves you airborn.

Lack of defense:

Rogue is an evasion heavy class. Engineer has metalaegis, Medcopter, increased belt size, electroshield, and jetpack for flee-mobility.

- Metalaegis is only effective on ranged hitters (as most melee skills will bypass protection), and people who spam projectiles (most of which are AoEs that can be cornered in to hit without being reflected or will hit unless you place it in front of the person you need to protect, lowering the general efficiency of the tile). It also costs 50 FP and doesn't do any reasonable damage due to its lack of range and damage output. In a long slog fest with tanks who can't evade, it can eventually add up, but they won't proc the protection usually so it's not cost effective. Great against ghosts that Ether Invitation and forget that protection exists. Its weakness of being easily ignored is also its strength there. Most fights a metalaegis is out, it will never reflect with a tile or protect an attack. Though I don't know how many times it's denied the possibility, there's almost always a plan B for attackers.

- Medcopter coming with the class that has an increased belt limit makes it relatively pointless. It doesn't carry pr-hi potions which you can get easily.

- Increased belt size is great. Either hit an engineer with interference or watch them slurp juice eight times in a single fight.

- Electroshield is a deterrent that most builds can get around. It's just another defensive option that only effects on-hits. Okay, not great.

- Jetpack is great, but the high CD and low distance means it won't actually keep you safe from enemies. Only useful for positioning before 2 3m skills. If you try to use this as a defensive measure to get out of range of enemies, you'll usually run into a scarlet twister, forced move, heaven kick, etc mobility attack. And on a class that only has other passive defensive measures that help against on-hit attacks, inviting spells and AoEs is generally a bad idea.

Upgrades:

An increase in duration and an added benefit make these so much more viable beyond jetpack upgrade. With that said, the one that stands out to me as the least worthwhile stat boost and worst skill to share is electro shield. Requiring 3m to apply after you're upgraded with it and 5-15 critical (which if you go up to the full rank of this, your ally will run out of the upgrade just as their shield runs out which means they won't be able to apply it a second time if you manage a 7 round fight to begin with.) Other than that, the upgrades are fine but not great. Though, without the bomb upgrade skill from engineer and substantial fire attack, magic gunners won't really succeed all too well with grenade launcher or flamethrower.

Guile Boost:

I'd argue that this is the least impactful stat in the game to invest in past a certain point and even less for engineers. Okay for magi gunners with the flank scaling and the amount of skills you might pick up as a magic gunner, but even without investing into this much I didn't even get close to being capped on scales while running one rank in every shell. Rogue's resourceful and Engineer's technological marvel mean that guile is not worth much to you. As a destiny rogue now, I have 33.5 skill slots with no investment in guile.



Next post will be me trying to throw out a bunch of small ideas that could alleviate these problems.
Last edited by FaeLenx on Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

FaeLenx
Novice Member
Novice Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 am

Re: Changes that could be made to engineer

Post by FaeLenx » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:33 am

Random ideas in no particular order:
  • Engineer bots can pick up scrap for the engineer.
  • Scrap gives a cumulative bonus so that 2 scrap makes a free engineer bot.
  • Some ability either through enchants or an engineer specific ability to change grenade elemental damage to slashing or another element.
  • Same for flamethrower. Just change it to chemthrower or something and it would slot in with the same changes that other classes get while not having a dumb name.
  • Give engineers a skill that lets them change bombs, grenades, and flamethrower into acid damage as a sort of chemical engineer mad scientist scheme.
  • Raise the movement range on engineer bots.
  • Raise the attack range on engineer bots.
  • Do something to make it so engineer bots don't become a source of 150 HP for rebound-ghosts. Immunity to claret calls, etc.
  • Make it so engineer bots receive all upgrades you have upon being summoned.
  • Bashfix doesn't need to require an axe.
  • Lower FP costs on bots.
  • FP generation similar to monks/Evoker/DH. Call it "Tinkering" and it could either give straight FP or give you scrap so you can summon bots for cheaper. Or some combination thereof. Could require a bot to be on the field within X range to avoid it being a kiting tool like monks skukuchi to an edge of the fight and then power up. Just some way to come back from or stay further away from 0 within the FP cost heavy class.
  • Make it so grenades are 2-3 momentum skills unless you have a gun equipped, in which case it's a 1m skill. At 2-3 momentum with a decent scaling strength weapon, you could still do good AoE damage with it.
  • Your gun isn't a flamethrower. Make it so having a gun equipped increases flamethrower damage (even if it's just a 10% boost that would bring it up to its current buffed planned damage) but without it you could still use any weapon at a slightly lower damage but probably actually higher because better scaling.
  • Electric shield to shoot an AoE damage out around you after taking on-hit damage like reactive armor instead of only being melee skills would make it a much more dangerous skill, especially in team fights. Activating it a second time to ping 3x damage could still work as it is right now.
  • Jetpack could leave you airborn.
  • Medcopter could either use items from your belt or have better items in its own. I'd take it no longer being spar friendly over it being pointless outside of IC restricted fights.
  • Medcopter could have some separate healing ability. AoE healing. Static regeneration so long as its on the map. Something of that nature. Make it a target for people to NEED to chase it down instead of something that squirts its goo twice to okay effect and once to finish off in a long fight and then sits like a rock there.
  • Medcopter could have other utility skills that don't immediately regenerate HP. A 1 turn movement buff, switch locations, emergency fire extinguisher to put out burn, FP transfer (it has FP but no use of FP unless you give it a grenade launcher for some reason).
  • Reflector tiles could work like spirit mirror and reflect projectiles that deal damage to its tiles instead of just projectiles that land directly on it.
  • Protection could be made to not be bad?
  • Metalaegis could provide DR to allies around it like a wraithguard, though much lower than 30% because it has a massive amount of HP.
  • Metalaegis could be given the black knight skill to protect it from being pulled or pushed. Or its own variant that protects allies within 1 range of this as well. Right now, there are tools in every kit that relies on basic attacks to move people around to get around this particular mechanic. So even in the rare case that it's a good choice to throw a metalaegis down, it's still not as arguably good as other choices.
  • Guile boost could be anything else and give half the stats and be a better choice. Nothing in engineer works off of crits and the class already has 2 methods of gaining skill slots.
  • Repair could scale off of anything but guile and be usable.
  • More things could scale off of guile instead?
  • Make guile give you FP?
  • Give engineer an ability that lets them refresh their item based effects like spirit mirror, jarmor, etc much like tattoo refresh.
  • Salvage could be a 1 skill point investment skill and be actually worth having if it gave the 5 skill point investment effect. At level 1 it does not function in any beneficial way. 10% off of the cost of a 50 FP engineer device does not help when salvage itself costs 10 FP.
  • Salvage could be 1m as an ability to keep in line with the engineer class identity of having numerous small actions.
  • Salvage could cost 0 FP as it's an FP generation skill already.
  • Salvage could be used on scrap on the ground to repair the bot back up to full for a higher FP cost than original salvage, making it something that people might actually use.
  • Salvage could be more than 2 range.
  • Good materials could be replaced with having the bots be just as effective without it existing. It's a skill point sink that makes bots that much less enjoyable.
  • I saw a teaser about a tank and while it addresses the lack of mobility I'm considerably worried that it's a high FP cost thing that requires all bots to be next to you while delivering either no damage or very little. Without making the bots better, having them close to you doesn't necessarily help you. If the mobile platform does come into existence, it should either be a defensive measure all of its own that simply has the added bonus of having the bots along for the ride or some short lived offensive measure. But this is all hypothetical.
  • Power armor skill that lets you evade for 30% while in heavy armor to fit the tanky vibe of engineer while also fitting with its rogue roots.

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