Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

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Spoops
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Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Spoops » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:43 am

Since the Invocation talent's been in place since the talent rework you're able to just straight up achieve 100% invocation resistance for the invested points and never have to worry over invocations possibly breaking ever again, I know it can be frustrating for invocations to break but I feel as though their powerful effects warrant it and give HSDW more usage as well as it can be used to assure the safer uses of invocations, it would also help re-balance some of the current invocations like Adon Graxis or Earthbound Vengeance again.

The riskier style was more one I was a fan of, instead of chancing things to silence which may or may not even work due to how many counters have been presented for silence (For a good reason, this is not against SILENCE!) you'll often see almost any invocation just go uncontested, especially with setup in play.

so if we just decrease the invocation's sub talent minorly we may be able to see those risk vs reward setups in a fight return, and give more counterplay to invocations beside silence again, I propose we take down the value from SR*10% resistance to invocations breaking, to SR*8.5% instead, causing 100 damage to equal a 15% chance of breaking an invocation, 200 = 30% etc.

It may invoke more thought into a fight this way as well, maybe you'll think "Hmm maybe I should save my big hit in case they start casting an invocation" and on the flip side if a Checkmate or Eclair is used without thought, someone could start invoking and feeling more safe doing it.
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Lolzytripd
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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Lolzytripd » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:57 pm

Yes

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Shujin
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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Shujin » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:16 pm

Lolzytripd wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:57 pm
Yes

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PantherPrincess
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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by PantherPrincess » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:25 pm

I am fine with a minor nerf as stated above, I think any lower would be too much as you have to consider the amount of points you're spending as well into the talent which isn't huge but its definitely a small investment and it's not always easy for every build to resist silence on top of that.
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Kameron8
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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Kameron8 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:37 am

I'm on the fence about this.

I like the idea conceptually, since Invocations are supposed to be heavy impact spells with a sizable wind-up time. I think several classes that rely on Invocations have decent means of making them safer built into their kit. (Devocation, High-Speed Divine Words)

What I'm not super thrilled about:
  • How little control either party has over the outcome of RNG shattering. Save your big, 250 damage hit? 37.5% chance to make it worth something. Start an invocation somewhere safe? Don't get unlucky if someone plinks you for 20 damage when rolling that 3%. Don't roll poorly if you start the round poisoned.
  • While maybe half of the Invocations are at a power level that makes this risk worthwhile, another half aren't. We don't often see Aposemagika, Divine Judgment, or Earthbound Fog, or Shine Knights -- even when they can't be interrupted. You certainly won't see them if they can be. One can argue that this is an issue with the invocations themselves rather than the underlying interruption system, but changing the latter necessarily draws power away from the former. Which leads me to...
  • This doesn't seem necessary for more than a handful of fringe cases. Is being unable to stop Adon Graxis, Enma's Summons, or Spirit Pain sometimes unfair? Yes. But this is not the case for (in my opinion) nearly every other Invocation we have. At what point is it wiser to target the problem spells specifically, rather than the system as a whole? I don't have an answer to that.
Personally, I'd be all for Invocations being appropriately powerful to warrant easy interruption from abuse. As the game is right now, though, I don't think more than a handful of spells meet the criteria. The payout is never worth the risk, if I'm trying to spend one and a half turns using Shine Sword's weapon potential or Aposemagika.

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Lolzytripd
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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Lolzytripd » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:51 pm

I think its worth looking at it from another angle..

this is too powerful an effect to be gained from purely talents, If the talent was capped at 50% and you had to sacrifice an equipment slot to another item to double your invocation resist, then it would be fine.

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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Noxid » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:44 pm

While I do think it's a little silly that a talent can just invalidate a game mechanic I also hate this kind of thing coming down to RNG. I agree with what Kameron has said too.

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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Sawrock » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:24 pm

I'm more on the side of Spoops and Lolzy; invocations won't be so easily splashable (resulting in situations where, due to positioning, you wouldn't want to invoke).

With a consideration towards multi-hit moves (such as round-based handguns, using the swordmaster's ring, etc), 25 damage four times is still around 14 to 15 percent.
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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Jupiter_Storm » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:58 am

Spoops wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:43 am
It may invoke more thought into a fight this way as well, maybe you'll think "Hmm maybe I should save my big hit in case they start casting an invocation" and on the flip side if a Checkmate or Eclair is used without thought, someone could start invoking and feeling more safe doing it.
Aside from the fact that this method equates to a hard nerf for Celerity based casters (as if CEL builds needed ANOTHER nerf), the fact that skills exist that can deal damage equating to the output of an invocation - and serve to reliably shatter an invoke - for literally 4 momentum proves that they don't need a nerf.

... Now if somebody addressed some of the new unga point and shoot skills that have arrived recently... I'd give this thread a plus one. :roll:

Edit: Smallprint context for those not in the know. This equates to a hard nerf for CEL casters because the majority of popular damaging builds that currently exist will be able to hit you, and reliably crit you. This means that you will consistently be taking the aforementioned threshold damage - and GOD HELP YOU if you're not an Evoker with HSDW.

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Shujin
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Re: Bringing Back the Risk (Invocation talent nerf)

Post by Shujin » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:38 am

Uhm but if you are slower than everyone else, everyone will hit you the following round? the number of peoples action between that is the same, the only difference is they are tankier, I guess, and that way have less of an chance for it to break. The cel person in turn can however reliably cast it 100% when he uses a tactical skip and people let them.

Anyway, I agree with Kam somewhat though, that certain skills are just not "Invocation tier" currently, and thats why they do not see the light of the day as much. (Devinve Judgement and Shine Knights would be untouched by this change though as with devocation there is still 100% chance to not be broken)
however, yes. Its too strong for a talent alone to have 100% free card, for the spells that ARE indeed terrifyingly strong. I don't like the no brain magicing we have at the moment.

So yeah I doubt this change will make us see any less or more of certain invocations, but its a kick in the shin for our lovely one hit Judgemental thunder users, with envoker as sub class. that certain other invocations need to get readressed, I have no doubt.

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