RE: FLeeing Rules

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Farkon » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:56 pm

WaifuApple wrote:If you have to rush due to real life, it should not be used as an excuse to botch up RP. Rescheduling is possible. If you're not willing to be open to rescheduling, then you either should start being open to it, or expect backlash. You being pressed for time is no excuse for rushed RP that you could have rescheduled.
I never said anything about using it as an excuse to botch RP, I'm referring to the fact that it's unreasonable to fight for long periods of time past midnight on a weekday. Rescheduling wasn't possible for our situation since nothing could be agreed upon, then there was an attempt through PMs to see who would fight us, but there were many mixed responses. The last fight wasn't even initiated or accepted by me in any case, but my guild member realized that it would be necessary to fight to avoid being banned and placate the situation.
WaifuApple wrote: Also, we assume they are capable in some form of getting in your way, you assume none are capable enough to stop you, so clearly there's no room for you to put that on us, because simply put, you assumed the other extreme. Most player characters have a degree of skill, so it is more likely they would be able to challenge your escape than not.
There were already challenges made to thwart our escape, as I said before I'm not assuming that everyone is incapable to stop us, but it's completely unreasonable in a combat situation where every single person has tactical placement to stop us at every turn from escaping in a large city during a chaotic situation, especially when my third point comes into the equation.
WaifuApple wrote: And in response to Yark. Pfft... Building a team OOCly, specifically for the purposes of destroying people. That's building to be meta, not building to be IC, and is terrible practice.
It doesn't decredit the fact that we had to confront a group that had watched us fight for roughly a hour and had time to prepare.

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by WaifuApple » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:15 pm

You had the opportunity to attempt to reschedule in the public discord, too, but you decided to go onward, so it was the bad call of your group that led to the botching of your experience. You didn't try hard enough to reschedule, that much is certain, doesn't matter if the fight wasn't initiated by you. So long as you actually come back when rescheduled, people will generally work with you.

With the group having an hour to prepare, there's only so much you can do to prepare in this game. The amount of preparation you can do amounts to like 5 minutes of prep. Any time after that doesn't add readiness, so giving a timescale of an hour means nothing.

Also, to note, as I'm told, two members of your group joined the battle without IC RP, and despite the fact people would have been in the way, which amounts to OOC backup, which... is actually against the rules. So either way, your practices were rather faulty. Keep that in mind. When two of your members are being attacked in the square, you can't just dismiss everyone else and join in. You have to fight your way through, which means you'll HAVE to leave them to fend for themselves unless you win another fight.

But that's enough on that. I'm pointing this out on an unrelated topic that doesn't need it. It needed saying somewhere, but going too astray screws things up.

In relation to the flee rules, however. It's way too easy for people to escape based on one person escaping meaning everyone gets to run. Judging by your responses, you'll accept no wrongdoing, so individual flee would really help, to stop one person's flee meaning that everyone in a party gets to escape.

Sorry to any GM who sees this rambling.
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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Yark » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:40 pm

Waifu, it doesn't sound like you were present for this event. The only "meta" member involved in those fights has a theme and a full RP profile to go along with his combat style. I mean hell, I was on some terrible Apertaurus fire mage meme build whose only trick is popping off Sear and Explosion.

As for joining the fight, I was there long before the crowd formed, watching Eidolon being badgered for nearly 15 minutes before a fight started, and ready to assist when necessary. It's not as though I came out of nowhere.

The solution here is pretty simple though. If you think members of the "hero" crowd are capable of detaining other citizens in a professional and orderly fashion, then you should be able to assemble a team capable of defeating a group of four people. And if you are unable to beat them, then you may want to revisit Guard training protocols.

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Lolzytripd » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:57 pm

there wasn't 20+ people at the start of combat, people started flooding in after combat started, those people that flooded in shouldn't count towards the escape check because its takes not time for everyone to walk towards a fight and a lot more time to finish one.

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Joseph Jostar » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:38 pm

i bring the flee mechanics up because they apparently play a major part in the current fleeing rules.

the specific situation mentioned brings up a major issue with the '4v4' etiquette that's used as opposed to forcing each member of a party to go 4v1 when facing 16 people, for example. that might be worth its own discussion as well.

regardless, recent events demonstrate how to perfectly abuse the current flee rules and it's clear they need to be thoroughly reconsidered

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by BluestStark » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:10 pm

Let's keep this post related to the fleeing rules please, a little bit of off track is ok but if it goes too far please go to a different thread.
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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Sawrock » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:53 pm

It's not abuse of the flee rules. If they got away, they got away. They should be allowed to get away without having to fight half the server.

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Slydria » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:11 am

Well, I think I should respond to a lot of the points made here.

But first, I'd like to try and explain what I think the goals of the flee rules should be:

1. To be a system players can use in times when things cannot be mutually resolved in regards to players fleeing.
2. To offer a 'fair but justified' system between pursuers and runners. Fleeing should be the right amount of difficult in the right circumstances.
3. To improve how conflict is handled by cutting down on factors that exacerbate the conflict.

I'm just going to condense a bunch of points because there's a lot of stuff here to dig through.

Large opposition has little to no impact

This is gonna be a struggle to balance for.

On one hand, it doesn't necessarily make sense for people to essentially stop being able to contribute after the up to 8 fighting members and it does result in people getting left out.

On the other, if everyone got a shot, things would just take far too long to resolve and could easily lead to things being totally unfair on the other side.

The trick here is figuring out a way to make large numbers matter without them being so significant that being able to successfully flee is too difficult. Unfortunately, I don't have an idea on how this could be accomplished yet.

Cellsvich needs it's own rules

Currently Cellsvich has two rules in regards to fleeing.

First, fleeing parties have a penalty of -5 to their flee roll in Cellsvich. This is to represent outside factors while trying to flee, mostly in the form of interference coming from NPCs in this case.

Second, the rule of having to last 5 Rounds as opposed to the current 2 Round cooldown. This is so there's actually a fight and not just a game of ring around the rosies.

I don't mind hearing additional ideas for Cellsvich specifically.

No additional flee checks are necessary after two fights are done

The reason we decided to limit this is mostly an effort to expedite things and to avoid dogpiling. While I understand it doesn't make necessarily make logical sense when there are more people in the background, going through too many hoops is something I think we want to avoid. I'm not against more measures necessarily but I don't want things getting out of hand either.

Downed party members shouldn't always be capable of fleeing along with the runner

I agree with this. So I think one of the adjustments made will be in regards to handling downed members. Even if it is something simple like downed members have to make an additional flee roll or risk being left behind.

Individual fleeing

While this is mostly a mechanical idea... The problem with having to go through with things on an individual basis has it's own problems, I'm mainly concerned here about overcomplicating things with say several rolls for group vs group fights.

Anyone arriving to the scene after combat shouldn't count for flee rules

Hard maybe. Part of the reason for why there's a cap on how many fights can occur against fleeing parties is because of concerns about people suddenly appearing on the scene where there's just potentially back-to-back waves of newcomers to prevent escapes.

That said, determining who should and shouldn't count is tricky and I don't necessarily agree with everyone who comes later should be out.

Should back-up guards not be able to assist despite not being on the scene at the time? Should someone who was in a different part of Cellsvich be excluded? How far away is too far before they get excluded?

Fleeing always needs a chance of success

I agree. There should be that avenue, even when the odds are stacked against you, otherwise that's not fair.

Fleeing should be weighted in the runner's favour

I don't agree, particularly in the case of Cellsvich. Logically speaking, the odds should absolutely be against criminals. They're in the largest city in the game both in terms of the world's population and usually the player population, guard interference would be highly likely which is why the idea of roll penalties came to be to represent this interference instead of them being strictly meaningless in these scenarios.

NPCs factoring into the flee rules

Currently NPCs only have influence in the form of being a contributing factor to the roll penalty in certain regions. Unsure if they should hold much more sway than that, aside from some logical things like Guards closing the front gates during a fuss or the Mage's Guild not serving criminals so other avenues of escape will need to be considered.

Only guards should get flee chase bonuses in cities

Well, it's moreso that runners are penalized depending on where it's happening than attackers getting a bonus.

However I don't think the effects should be mutually exclusive to guard players. It's intended that the flee rules could be used by anyone as a fallback to resolve fleeing, making it so only meaningful interference only can be offered by a player guard seems silly to me.

The impact of mechanical fleeing

It's hard to balance around this. I don't want to go too far on the mechanical fleeing, I think the 5 Round Rule at least ensures some blows occur. More should be done but I think it's something that should be solved by mechanical tweaks than adding more rulings against how people can mechanically flee.

People using the flee rules in spite of roleplay

The idea with the flee rules is that they are mainly meant to serve a fallback, in times where people can't or don't want to arrange something mutual. If both parties are willing, you can eschew these rules.

However just because the fleeing rules themselves are worded in a particular way doesn't mean they should be divorced from what's going on. The results of what occurs should have basis in roleplay, people should be offering decent explanations to go along with their results.

The opposing rolls themselves are at least in my mind intended to represent a chase sequence. Sure, "they rolled 20 and I got 14 so they just win" but that doesn't mean you didn't try or that you were just rendered braindead by the result.

I'd like to hear more feedback about how to make this seem less detached from roleplay.

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Lolzytripd » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:15 am

Sly I think the issue with the rules and roleplay is that people -never- let antagonists escape via roleplay and force the flee check. Its gotten to the point antagonists have given up on roleplay attempts to flee and just do the damn roll.

My issue with late joiners counting towards flee/chase is because how long combat takes and how long it -doesn't- take for new comers to show up on scene, especially since honestly most of the time they only know about it because of meta ooc knowledge.

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Re: RE: FLeeing Rules

Post by Kensai » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:49 am

THe same fking shit just happened, those grind abusers just fking abused the rules again and walked away from 20+ people. This shit is so stupid.

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