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+--- Thread: Hop here, hop there. (/showthread.php?tid=2111)
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Rendar - 12-23-2015
I'm kind of inclined to agree with Panther. The fact that you can move 7 squares, knock yourself Airborne/Knock your enemy airborne then launch them a tile closer to where you USED to be...
It's kind of overpowering. Especially whenever they can Meditate > Hop. Let me just put that into perspective
Most base classes are 5-6Movement. Felidae's get an extra +1 on that. At critical HP, Felidae's can move 6-7 Squares for 1M. This movement triggers traps, earthbound fog, and everything else 'negative' moving can provide. It does not knock them airborne, this is good for a racial ability.
Corbies can Gain Air for 1M. This does not allow them to move 7 squares, nor does it allow them to alternatively fling someone else airborne. This is a good racial ability.
Crane Hop is an abomination. It's the love child of Felidae and Corbie. 1M for 7 Squares of Movement, Doesn't trigger traps or anything negative, and gives you the airborne status. It doesn't even require you to be in critical HP. Are there negatives to actually being this class? Not really.
Are there negatives to being a Corbie/Felidae? Yes there are.
I'd say if their airborne status didnt end at the end of their turn (forcing counters with other people using Airborne-Fuckery skills), it could maybe stick around at 2M. Maybe.
As it is now? Put it all the way at 3 Momentum because this is actually broken.
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Trexmaster - 12-23-2015
I'd also consider armor restrictions to Crane Hop as well.Just cause I feel like that'd make sense. (I.e. requires unarmored).
Of course, it's main issue is not only providing a virtually free 7 range move, it also let's you do airborne shenanigans. This seriously seems like it should've been one of the main class skills.
As to how to fix it...
1. Make it unuseable while airborne.
2. Increase its momentum cost up to either two or three (if it goes to 3 it'd lose a bit too much power as it stands)
3. Armor restrictions.
These are just ideas to balance it out, and I don't intend for all of them to apply at once.
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Shujin - 12-23-2015
Oh, the "Not useable while airborne" and "Armor restriction" might actually be good ideas, most of it´s bullshit comes from cranhop stacking to fly across the map like nothing.
Add that to the either lower range or 2M and it should be fine. I think? Worth testing.
to point four, I would say make it rather so that you can launch your enemy airborne? Even through I kinda dislike it since the lag is pretty much deciding the success of your actions.
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Exxy - 12-24-2015
Now I may be missing some things (which more than likely I am), but why not mark it up to 2M, require Urawaza to stay airborne after you enter the marked tile's area (and/or to knock them airborne... not entirely sure how that bit should work) and either be armor-locked >or< nerf it with ascending armor types (similar concept to how knockdown Evade penalties, I believe? But that seems silly considering a lot of the class passives are for Unarmored so you already have the incentive to use Unarmored. . . Although not an entirely mute point, I think, *considering class synergy*. . .). The idea of it being un-usuable when already Airborne doesn't sound too bad either.
*^That being in any combination, be it anything from only one of the ideas to all of them.*
And ehhhh to the notions of nerfing it's range. Comparing it to similar moves (like Haunting and Blink) is a bit odd. Haunting fears the target if you're moving -to- them and otherwise is a Repeated Action workaround that costs FP/something used to ignore any negative terrain conditions. Where as Blink doesn't break Invocations if used in conjunction. *I suppose if seen as necessary, maybe max Move Range falling down to 6?*
I suppose it worse comes to worse and the salt piles multiply we could make it a pseudo-Haunting that triggers Airborne instead of Fear? -queue nervous laugh-
---
Aaaand that's all I could care to think of for it, feel free to break this apart and point out the drastic flaws in it. -nod nod-
P.S. The idea of flipping through the air to land next to the enemy and throw them up in the air does seem pretty lolsy.
Edit: Parts of text beginning and ending with asterisks (*) were added in after posting.
Re: Hop here, hop there. - MegaBlues - 12-24-2015
Not related to the balance discussion, but,
https://youtu.be/n-8XIdWYupY?t=222
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Ranylyn - 12-24-2015
Personally, I'd be all for...
1) Keeping the M cost at 1 but substantially raising the FP cost.
2) Raising the M cost and keeping the FP cost low.
3) Keeping everything the same but putting severe restrictions on it like a Metitate-like cooldown, and not being useable on the same turn as Meditate.
The entire issue right now is that it's incrediby spammable. Any of these solutions would combat that issue. It's only as good as it is because it can be used every turn and multiple times per turn. The 1M cost would not be an issue if it wasn't something to be used every turn.
EDIT: Another idea I just had is to not remove repeat action costs each turn for it, to represent the MA getting increasingly exhausted from repeated use, effectively giving it a "only useabe X many times per battle" aspect to it, keeping it as incredibly good but something you really want to use only at the right moments. As has been stated, due to Shukuchi, movement isn't even an issue for MAs, so IMO it would be fitting to keep Crane hop as some kind of neato trump card.
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Kameron8 - 12-24-2015
"Ranylyn" Wrote:Personally, I'd be all for...
1) Keeping the M cost at 1 but substantially raising the FP cost.
3) Keeping everything the same but putting severe restrictions on it like a Metitate-like cooldown, and not being useable on the same turn as Meditate.
New meditate restores an obscene amount of focus with even marginal will. Keeping it at 1m just means if you can't crush someone with your free movement quickly, you can hop away and meditate until you're all focused up. This base class skill completely outclasses Haunting and Blink, and being able to use it for 1m at any point is going to make it overpowered. Even with 2m, you can still attack 3 times if you crit with fleur on both weapons. Having it cost 3m but refund 1 on a successful Urawaza would also work if lag didn't make quick time events impossible half the time.
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Ranylyn - 12-25-2015
New Meditate does give back nice amounts of FP, but isn't spammable. Even if you can get, say, 50 FP back (being quite generous for a melee class, like LE'd Wyverntouched getting decently lucky as a 0% will class) it'd be gone very quickly if Crane hop cost, say, 30 FP. While boosting the FP cost is the worst of my suggestions, easily, (mostly due to Evoker/Monk getting crane hop + invocation + high wil for meditate) it'd at least even the playing field much more compared to abilities like Blink and haunting due to the latter costing almost nothing in comparison.
I really do think my best suggestion is either number 3 (Example: Only being able to hop once every 3 turns and not being useabe on the same turn as Meditate) or not resetting the repeat action penalty on it throughout the battle (Making it cost 1M, then 2, then 3, etc, and never resetting during the battle) to make it more of a tactical choice on when to use it but having it still be very good when you do. After all, now that moves like Geldoren also gain a range bonus from Shukuchi, there's plenty of options to close in and attack for only 4M (Shukuchi + Geldoren, for example, or Crane hop + anything costing 3M)
Sure, Fleur could be an issue, but considering Duelist is most likely next to get the revamp (Only Duelist and Curate are left to be redone) it's also very possible Fleur could be changed, so perhaps we should wait and see what happens there before we start basing current balance issues on a class that'll get this same treatment within the next 2 weeks to a month.
EDIT: I'll address one last point, before anyone accuses me of being a crane hop abuser, since I didn't even sink any points into it because I anticipated a change just from reading it; let's look at haunting for a moment. There's a reason it sees little use. It only has a few select functions. Causing fear to Claret Called enemies is ultimately kind of pointless due to L'au Dela, and why spend FP to move when you can just move? It's primary use is escaping scenarios where one finds themself "pinned" (Boxed-in by enemies, immobilized, etc) and avoiding damaging tiles/traps like cinders/ice/vines. As someone who quite likes ghosts, it says a lot when I very rarely invest the SP in haunting, much less spend a skill slot on it. As such, I see no reason to devalue Crane hop to the same tier of "why bother" as haunting. It simply makes much more sense to me to keep it as something amazing with a high drawback, such as a long cooldown on uses. Kind of like how pocket sand is 1 use per battle but has a 100% chance to inflict blind. Except I feel pocket sand is too limiting to often be worth the skill slot, but I'm sure you see what I'm trying to say.
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Sarinpa1 - 12-25-2015
make it three momentum and range decided by movement
you want to hop far, sure, here you go, have a shukuchi to it
it will fulfill the purpouse of "i hop here and be airborne to it", will make it a viable alternative to heaven kick or just moving (also i presume it works againts watchful eye, ice tiles and such), it will have reasonable range
and it wont be spammable like mad
sarin 5 president
Re: Hop here, hop there. - Rendar - 12-25-2015
Verglas+Crane Hop OP.
Especially if they can just Hop > Winter Fang > Famiuga.
Then spam Expanding Ice as they fly around the arena. Hop > Famiuga > Expanding. Rinse and repeat until the entire arena is covered.
Don't wanna be a mage? NO PROBLEM.
Hop > Ice Point > Expanding. Just be a GS instead for a ton of passives and FP regen ((Not that you'll need it; Meditate OP)).
Seriously though, Hop gives WAY too much movement and versatility to the class. It was bad enough as is, but Verglas no longer needing to get themself airborne with a combo to KD you down is a tad sad.
(And yes im just a lil bit salty about that 1v4 against all Verglas)