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+--- Thread: Asago Racial Change (/showthread.php?tid=6752)
Re: Asago Racial Change - Shujin - 02-27-2020
Yeah it would really suck if people could just use an Alias and switch out their whole profile and RP and repurpose a character for a single thing he does with them.
Glad that never happens.
Re: Asago Racial Change - PantherPrincess - 02-27-2020
Shujin post_id=39194 time=1582778412 user_id=135 Wrote:Yeah it would really suck if people could just use an Alias and switch out their whole profile and RP and repurpose a character for a single thing he does with them.
Glad that never happens.
How does that compare to changing your racials and base stats easily. They're still the same race, all they did essentially was change the playby and build if they really had to. If anything it's hypocritical to mention something like this and then push for something that would just enforce what you're complaining about if you ask me.
Re: Asago Racial Change - Shujin - 02-27-2020
the only real difference is that is people would need to donate if they go that path/ go through Gms for an actual permission to do so.
All it really does if you change your race (Which usually you also want to switch your buidl with anyway) is saving you countles sof hours grinding/ keeping your donation stuff thats not tradeable (quite importantr actually)/ by having a new character.
It also lets you fix a certain issue for Humans, switching into a race they ar esupposed to be but couldn't cause they didn't exist mechanically back then.
Its the same level of abuseable(Mind you that one is globally accepted and alot of people do it, because honestly? Everyone who runs events without Admin Help, kinda needs this "Tool" which is why everyone accepts it, me included.) only that it takes more effort/costs more. and is less easily revertable.
So yeah, being all on the fence on how abuseable it is...Is kinda silly if you take stuff liek this in consideration. The only reason I could understand it being abuseable would be if we had a system in palce that benefits for sticking with one character over along epriod of time and they would "Cheese" that bonus. We have no such systems, the "Abuse" level is kinda neglectable (else people just triangle items over, have friends hand them stuff or what have you to the same effect)...It just makes it easier for peopel to not spend 2 days grinding a character up, that they might not even use anymore anyway. (So might even reduce savedata, for not having 30 characters of each different race in the "bank"
So yes, I was pointing that hypocrisy out, thanks for noticing.
Re: Asago Racial Change - Autumn - 02-27-2020
Even if it were to exist I doubt anyone in the community would use it for nefarious purposes, even commonly, thats not saying I agree with it either, as Walrus brought up it kinda kills RP, makes new characters not as worthwhile as you can just start a new full book character off of your last one, and encourages the behavior of changing your mind about a character's race.
Re: Asago Racial Change - Shujin - 02-27-2020
And thats fair, though there is also the other side. Someone died on their character and they get a name change, and keep all their stuff anyway. People accept that and honestly its fair. Your did that gaming experience and grind already to have all these things.
But why would it suddenly be the world burning if you want to be a Wyverntouched instead of an Elf? You still did that kind of grind. I am mostly saying...With all the things that are currently Globally accepted in the game like:
-Triangle trading (cause everyone knows the pain of getting an super rare item on the wrong character)
-Having friends dish you out some Equipment for the new build you came up with. (cause we play the game long enough now to have a stash of almost everything flying around)
-Profile swapping for one time events (I am not even against it, if its to help with an event.)
I don't think this method would kill more than the mentioned "Accpeted" ones above. Old time characters and new time characters be it 5 years old or 2 days have barely a difference in "Standing" RPly when it comes to power. A switch in race is barely any weight added, that you couldn't do otherwise aswell. Honestly? You just give dev money when you "Cheat" this way instead of the other.
Re: Asago Racial Change - MakeshiftWalrus - 02-27-2020
I'm not personally invested in having to micro-manage everyone's races, it's difficult enough to keep track of what races individual characters have in the first place. It's nigh-impossible for us to tell if anyone is mucking about with their race, and believe me, it isn't as uncommon as people think it is.
It would be nice to have the ability to change a character's race, but it absolutely shouldn't be used in the same way as a name change. I personally think people have gotten too lazy about making new characters, but I don't exactly fault them.
Most people are in the mindset that you can't role-play, unless you've got a full book, enough 10-stars to kit yourself out, and literally every single stamp in the world. They wouldn't want to enter a PvP-match, and have a chance of LOSING, right? It's a mindset I personally find highly detrimental to the state of the game, and one I think we, as a community, need to work on.
By making an asago item that lets you change your race on a whim, you not only invalidate a chunk of Legend Extension, you also invite people to meta-swap around races on a whim, and makes it okay for Shaitans to suddenly become Vampires, and vice versa. You could argue that it should only be for making "New" characters, but that brings up a whole slew of other issues with it.
Firstly, it means people don't care for the game, they just want to keep their items. They don't care to play the game, be it out of the tedium of grinding, unfun mechanics, or just how long it can take to fully kit out a character. It's in my belief that we should make the game easier to access for new characters, instead of finding ways to circumvent playing the game.
Second, if someone does end up trying to abuse it, the GMs can't do anything about it unless we were made aware of the situation. Given the general scarcity of people actually approaching us, or, at least me, this makes it a massive pain, and essentially forces us to be on top of everyone, and knowing everything by manual watch. And like I mentioned above, I'm not interested in micro-managing everyone's races. I'm sure that goes the same for the rest of the GM-team.
All in all, I see the convenience of the idea, and it would be nice to have, but I fundamentally disagree that it would be healthy for the game, the players, and the GMs.
Re: Asago Racial Change - HexGirlBestGirl - 02-27-2020
While all of what I feel pretty much has been said on this, in that what Walrus said.
I truly seek to emphasize that some people RP without even kitting up, not even for events in general but just as a whole. I can list more issues with allowing this to occur personally than just telling someone to not bother with that and RP how they want.
The only time that this kind of stuff would remotely become relevant is if you wanna go around beating ass in PvE or PvP. And again. As I said. Unless something super defines a race, then it'd be pretty hard in general at the current moment to remotely keep track of said meme race swapping. It's akin to how you can't tell what someone has spirited for sure unless there's a visual effect that clearly indicates they're using a spirited skill.
(i.e how can someone tell I have that sick Rising Tide spirited which is just an FP Cost difference and raw SWA otherwise when I have that sick Mask of Metal compared to having Blink spirited which is literally just an extra range that can only be obtained via such a method. The answer is you can't. Likewise, the same applies to racials as a whole. Unless it's something blatantly apparent that makes them Race X, then it could be a mass majority of reasons that a person has whatever power or stats they have.)
Shujin post_id=39198 time=1582781573 user_id=135 Wrote:Your did that gaming experience and grind already to have all these things.Commit to your race and make a new character if you don't seek to repurpose into a different entity of said race. Do the gaming experience if you care enough to be on that new race. As Walrus said, play game or don't play game. Minimize circumventing.
But why would it suddenly be the world burning if you want to be a Wyverntouched instead of an Elf? You still did that kind of grind. I am mostly saying...With all the things that are currently Globally accepted in the game like:
-Triangle trading (cause everyone knows the pain of getting an super rare item on the wrong character)
-Having friends dish you out some Equipment for the new build you came up with. (cause we play the game long enough now to have a stash of almost everything flying around)
-Profile swapping for one time events (I am not even against it, if its to help with an event.)
If you have friends dish out some equipment, that means they did the gaming experience and are just sharing. Works like that in lots of multiplayer games with trading and such. So there's no problem at all with that, by your words.
Triangle Trade if you wish, if Dev was truly super bothered by something he's aware of, he'd put more effort into fixing it. Since plenty have made him aware of it. Yet, it's not fixed. If the GMs cared enough, they'd yeet any and everyone they knew were doing it. And that brings me to something Walrus stated. Although i'll replace some words to get my point across.
MakeshiftHexGirl post_id=39200 time=1582801611 user_id=2122 Wrote:I'm not personally invested in having to micro-manage everyone's trades, it's difficult enough to keep track of what trades individual characters have going on in the first place. It's nigh-impossible for us to tell if anyone is mucking about with their silly triangular trading, and believe me, it isn't as uncommon as people think it is.
Second, if someone does end up trying to abuse it, the GMs can't do anything about it unless we were made aware of the situation. Given the general scarcity of people actually approaching us, or, at least me, this makes it a massive pain, and essentially forces us to be on top of everyone, and knowing everything by manual watch. And like I mentioned above, I'm not interested in micro-managing everyone's trades. I'm sure that goes the same for the rest of the GM-team.
One could argue that Dev should just add in more proper logging and such and that the GMs would then be able to do their jobs more coherently and better. But then you'd have to consider how systems to detect the illegitimate versus the legitimate would seem. Since if there was a system to figure this out, we'd have some sick super AI by now capable of determining intent from the vagueness of something such as 'They swapped races at this moment and had this name and stats and such on this ckey on this slot, blahblahblah.'
Sure, I can think of a few ways but at the end of the day, it'd be up to GM Judgement if they didn't do it themselves and get an explicit reason why. As for Triangle Trading, a system such as that wouldn't be needed since if one existed, we wouldn't have it to begin with and thus wouldn't need to monitor it.
Spoops post_id=39197 time=1582781019 user_id=193 Wrote:Even if it were to exist I doubt anyone in the community would use it for nefarious purposes, even commonly, thats not saying I agree with it either, as Walrus brought up it kinda kills RP, makes new characters not as worthwhile as you can just start a new full book character off of your last one, and encourages the behavior of changing your mind about a character's race.
I can name a few people who unironically would. Which is typically not a good thing. And once more. How would we know either way if they're not super blatant with it? There's plenty of bugs going around that are hard to track or even tell someone's abusing or not. And it's usually not for good reasons.
Shujin post_id=39196 time=1582779983 user_id=135 Wrote:It also lets you fix a certain issue for Humans, switching into a race they ar esupposed to be but couldn't cause they didn't exist mechanically back then.
Its the same level of abuseable(Mind you that one is globally accepted and alot of people do it, because honestly? Everyone who runs events without Admin Help, kinda needs this "Tool" which is why everyone accepts it, me included.) only that it takes more effort/costs more. and is less easily revertable.
I will give you the human point, not fully, but yes. Granted at that point, you'd only be switching for the base stats and nothing more. Since if you truly valued the RP more than the mechanical effectiveness of memes, your human race in theory, would be irrelevant as it says on the character screen. Since you can just RP being literally from anywhere, regardless of race.
Secondly, depending on the kinds of events being run, no. Not really. Some events are pure RP events or not even combat oriented, which pretty much makes your actual effective race irrelevant once again. Doubly so since, as you said. Profile swapping one time for events can circumvent this. Which means this 'everyone' you speak out would be running events that reek of mechanical relevancy primarily to which then. Sure. Convenient but think of everything outside the scope as you were thinking of before. Just don't put 'everyone' together as if every single event needs it. We all know that's wrong.
Hell, didn't we have an entire big ass festival not too long ago that already disproves this meme? And only one person really ran that by themselves. But i'm more than willing to listen to how 'everyone who runs events without admin help' needs to be able to perform such racial memery. I'm all ears and eyes, technically.
Shujin post_id=39194 time=1582778412 user_id=135 Wrote:Yeah it would really suck if people could just use an Alias and switch out their whole profile and RP and repurpose a character for a single thing he does with them.
Glad that never happens.
Yes, but typically that's more acceptable since again, same race overall. Technically, you could have one of every race and thus have an unlimited amount of any race at Level 60 with tons of gear if you made enough characters for it. And you could just swap your alias and have different profiles, maybe a personal wardrobe and tah-dah. You suddenly can RP an unlimited amount of characters and no one would be none the wiser.
It's the same as how people have event characters that they often do this for and just dispose of them right after and bring them back into relevancy when mechanically needed again. Put in the time to play the game to promote that sick event specialty memery, and sure.
Shujin post_id=39198 time=1582781573 user_id=135 Wrote:And thats fair, though there is also the other side. Someone died on their character and they get a name change, and keep all their stuff anyway. People accept that and honestly its fair. Your did that gaming experience and grind already to have all these things.
But why would it suddenly be the world burning if you want to be a Wyverntouched instead of an Elf? You still did that kind of grind. I am mostly saying...With all the things that are currently Globally accepted in the game like:
-Triangle trading (cause everyone knows the pain of getting an super rare item on the wrong character)
-Having friends dish you out some Equipment for the new build you came up with. (cause we play the game long enough now to have a stash of almost everything flying around)
-Profile swapping for one time events (I am not even against it, if its to help with an event.)
I don't think this method would kill more than the mentioned "Accpeted" ones above. Old time characters and new time characters be it 5 years old or 2 days have barely a difference in "Standing" RPly when it comes to power. A switch in race is barely any weight added, that you couldn't do otherwise aswell. Honestly? You just give dev money when you "Cheat" this way instead of the other.
MakeshiftWalrus post_id=39200 time=1582801611 user_id=56 Wrote:It would be nice to have the ability to change a character's race, but it absolutely shouldn't be used in the same way as a name change. I personally think people have gotten too lazy about making new characters, but I don't exactly fault them.
Most people are in the mindset that you can't role-play, unless you've got a full book, enough 10-stars to kit yourself out, and literally every single stamp in the world. They wouldn't want to enter a PvP-match, and have a chance of LOSING, right? It's a mindset I personally find highly detrimental to the state of the game, and one I think we, as a community, need to work on.
Firstly, it means people don't care for the game, they just want to keep their items. They don't care to play the game, be it out of the tedium of grinding, unfun mechanics, or just how long it can take to fully kit out a character. It's in my belief that we should make the game easier to access for new characters, instead of finding ways to circumvent playing the game.
Second, if someone does end up trying to abuse it, the GMs can't do anything about it unless we were made aware of the situation. Given the general scarcity of people actually approaching us, or, at least me, this makes it a massive pain, and essentially forces us to be on top of everyone, and knowing everything by manual watch. And like I mentioned above, I'm not interested in micro-managing everyone's races. I'm sure that goes the same for the rest of the GM-team.
All in all, I see the convenience of the idea, and it would be nice to have, but I fundamentally disagree that it would be healthy for the game, the players, and the GMs.
Walrus more or less summarized my feelings on that rather well. We're already in a state where grinding is hardly even that important anymore. This is a game. It is an RP Medium. It is an RP Game. Not all RP has to involve the game part and likewise, not all the game has to include the RP aspect. Get piece of gear, and you can just easily swap it between different materials and add qualities, already disabling a huge chunk of RNG. It's just a matter of getting the item you want unless it's like Rustic or Bloodsoaked or something you want.
This is why i'm more tolerant of people who put more effort in when effort needed to be put in is already low. It's just monotonous at best, and slightly more effort if you're newer and don't know the game so you can't go around grinding too easily. If you want to make a character for every race just so you can swap out with them, go nuts. You grinded up legitimately and as such, go nuts. Now you could argue, yes. Fruits of Fluidity. They invalidate the need to grind more by just allowing you to pay to respec yourself. At that point, just give more value to legend extending instead. The only reason was invalidated the moment you became able to normally grind for Vorpal and Divine. Quite literally. Now you just get all your book stuff and then grind the tower and that's it. Legend Inks are now useless again.
Amazing.
For my tl;dr which is poorly expressed and thus you people should read anyway but if you don't wanna, go nuts.
Re: Asago Racial Change - MakeshiftWalrus - 02-27-2020
HexGirlBestGirl post_id=39201 time=1582806149 user_id=2122 Wrote:-Snip-
While I don't disagree, please never re-write anything I say again. It's very, very easy to take it the wrong way.
Re: Asago Racial Change - Hanzo - 02-27-2020
This just might be the worst suggestion my eyes have ever came to glance over.
Re: Asago Racial Change - Shujin - 02-27-2020
The Irony is that I agree with your points. But because the game is in its current state I just feel likes its "Whatever? people do it already all the time." so the only thing that changes is that Dev gets money from it, or its somewhat supervised, which I can understand that GMs don't want to keep track off.
One main point that you have said, which is also my main point:
-People do not care to play through the game for a 124123 time in its current state. So either play the game or not?
I don't think having an option to make the game less of a chore to play, instead of flat out stopping playing the game, and have the chance to play a new race you haven't played before without the need of having 15 different keys, is as much as an issue as you make it out to be...Yes, Nonesense like Shaitans turning Vampire or anything Lore-breaking like that is obviously not what I mean. A person would obviously be an entirely new person using this option. Thats what it should be used for exclusively.
While yes of course I would much rather have the game improve so its more fun, and feels less of a tedious chore overall? Thats positive thinking at the moment and sadly not the reality. And if a players loses interest in playing a race and has to decide:
-Replaying the whole game that I really do not care about mechanically again to reach a certain spot so I feel comfortable (Walrus pointed out the 60/full book before RP mentallity, which is a can of worms on its own.)
-Not playing/enjoying the game anymore and just stopping cause its too much work for a simple breath of fresh air.
Do we really want them to pick the later? Not that this is the main reason peopel stop playing anymore, but it certainly doesn't add to replay value.
I am not going to comment on the Event thing further than saying that I obviously meant Events that need Statistics. I apologize for not stating the obvious before.
The game has suffered alot already for convieance sake, in the RP aspekt. I think its a bit late to try and fix that now, without a full Reset.(which no one wants, I assme.)