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+--- Thread: Here we go again (/showthread.php?tid=10863)
Here we go again - Anhita - 02-27-2024
Hey guys. Its me again. Worlds worst unsolicited defense attorney for banned folks. Here trying to get more stuff off my chest. And yes, it once again has to do with GM actions, and this is probably my most unfocused rant to ever really exist
Im certain you're tired of these posts, and I am certainly tired of writing them! I told myself I wouldn't write anything this time, and here I am! Admittedly my view on things is alittle less hopeful than the last. I got upset again. I said some mean things. And I admit I am not fully sure if I am still calm yet. But here I am, writing once more. Probably to no real change being made. The only thing I can think of is transparency being abit better. Its nice. Nicer than the alternative of just shadowbanning folks and letting people come up with wild conspiracy theories.
There are new GMs, and naturally, I always expect growing pains. But I've also never seen the GMs ever admit that they made a mistake. They never really want to discuss. They just do things and pray people forget about it in two months. Which will probably happen again, even if its something as serious as making sure somone in the community never gets to come back.
Going past my ramblings and further onto the actual point, I suppose, Recently - There was a ban, after a string of bans I was pretty much okay-ish with or expected. Rather than be vague and have you look it up, I'll just present it here.
![[Image: wKTsnv6.jpeg]](https://i.imgur.com/wKTsnv6.jpeg)
Now, Normally, I'd be like "Damn, that sucks. Those are some pretty hefty crimes, and if true, then the punishment is absolutely fair."
Except that isn't the case, actually! Y'see, These crimes were committed around 2+ years ago!
https://neus-projects.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=8764
Now I get it. Doxxing is bad. Its one of the worst things you can do on the internet. But this sets a precedent. And quite frankly rather than watching the GMs flounder around giving multiple statements in the midst of chaos and outrage, Discussion around the subject would probably be better spent with them being able to speak in solidarity. Even if its going to be more of the same. Theres never really any discussion to be had with the GMs in any meaningful- its their word, and its always final. Theres never "we'll do better next time" or "maybe we were wrong."
Apologies for the somewhat pointed topic. But I feel Hoot has shown remorse not only in that post from 2+ years ago, but from their actions since being unbanned the first time. And the GMs feeling the need to dig up old skeletons is a constant thing that I have always not been a fan of. And it felt like it happened all the time with harassment cases in particular for a certain period of time.
Why do we need to stir the pot for something that, in this case, over half the community weren't even *here* for? I dont even some of the GMs were present for this particular incident, even.
Maybe Im not the most level headed person to be starting the discussion at the moment. Im not even the victim. Heck. I have absolutely nothing to do with either party in terms of the accused or the victim. I certainly dont want to downplay their struggles. And I genuinely think what the had to go through was rough. One of the worst things I can probably imagine happening to somone on the internet. You can get harassed, threatened, or even worse even offline as a result of such things.
The reason why laws change retroactively irl is usually because it serves some benefit for the victim. The victim is who matters the most in this case, With my limited knowledge and understanding of the situation as a whole, I dont understand how this helps the victim at all, unless they felt Hoot was going to do it again.
But its also kinda fucked to go back to a years-old case, where it atleast *seems* like both parties have moved on. Hoot, having grown past their mistakes from all that time ago, I feel, from my limited interaction with them atleast. This was one the weird times where a person actually self-reflected on their ban! They knew what they did wrong, as opposed to the usual harassment cases where one is usually hit with it with no idea what their crime even is.
Then they got double-jeopardy'd.
The thing I dont like about this is the fact that if this can happen to Hoot. Whos to say it cant happen to any of the previous bans that we can view today in the now defunct Unban appeals? Or those that happened afterwards? Even the ones before which have no official public record?
You can do one thing wrong and now have it held over your head for the rest of your entire life in this community, even if you've already been punished for it. Admittedly it felt like this could happen already for some. But now, You can get punished *twice* for something you've done. And that punishment? It very well could be a permenant affair.
Do I expect this to actually happen? Well, I'd like to hope not. But I've had more than my fair share of both good and bad experiences from this community alone myself, and its starting to make me feel bitter in general. Right around when I was getting my passion back, I see another thing like this that absolutely needs to be discussed.
Right. Back on track. I think there needs to be a discussion about pushing in bans for things like this. I also am not a fan of retroactively changing ones punishments. This is probably clear from the last few walls, But I want to reiterate
I do not know the full details, But I am of the opinion that Hoot should not have been re-banned for somthing they've already done.
One of the GMs, amidst the chaos of the discord discourse, mentioned that the information is already out there, and that you cant really take that back. Theres no taking back the pain of things that happened in the past-- or could possibly be happening now. I think Doxxing should absolutely be a permenant ban without any tolerance. However, Back then, it -was- tolerated. Going back and changing that now opens a whole can of worms, And I am unsure who it really helps. I feel going forward, Firstly, The ban on Hoot should absolutely be reversed if they were not using the information in question from the doxxing since their ban.
Secondly, If anyone -was- using the information in question other than Hoot, it'd probably be a better avenue of punishment. I cant exactly say whats right or wrong. Im not really a GM, But I feel this is the most fair. But my opinion, in all honesty, after all this time of trying to appeal these things, probably doesn't matter whatsoever.
And uh.. I think thats it. Thats all I got. Hopefully Im not putting myself on the firing line for having the possibly wrong opinion or being abit on the emotional side of things again. At the very least I hope this kicks off productive discussion as opposed to my usual expectation
RE: Here we go again - Salsaccino - 02-27-2024
A lot of what you admit in this post is exactly why we went through with this ban, and why the only apologies we have to offer at this time is that it was not a Permanent ban from the get-go.
There were victims to this case, victims who went through something truly awful. I find it incredibly distasteful and disrespectful to be making a post like this, because acknowledging their struggles while undermining them in the same breath kind of defeats the purpose.
Doxxing will not be tolerated in the past, present, and future. We understand the concerns that come with re-evaluating bans, but we assure you that this is for extreme circumstances. You may absolutely request a case be re-evaluated but there is no promise such a thing will come to pass.
RE: Here we go again - WaifuApple - 02-27-2024
I believe that ultimately dismissing concerns as to how things are handled by the GMs as distasteful and disrespectful to the victims is essentially yourself shirking any accountability for decisions, however messy they may be, in the interests of making those with valid concerns look bad. You cannot in one breath say that people have valid concerns and that you understand them, and then insult the voices that bring them.
People were told to take this to the forums or to modmail, as this would be a better place for that then general. This post seems like an emotional reaction, so it's not exactly the most thought out or anything. Knee jerk is the word I can grant there. There are victims, and those victims have been through a lot, but that does not pave the way for GMs - not the victims themselves - to hide behind that when difficult but understandable questions are asked.
RE: Here we go again - Asellia - 02-27-2024
This is a very complicated topic -- I can 100% understand feeling unsafe even if a person had improved since then, if they're still present. I've been severely emotionally scarred and more in the past, in other games. On one hand, I don't like the premise of re-evaluating old bans and redoing punishment if no new 'crimes' were discovered. On the other, I think I'd be okay with it if a solid statement was given that this only applies to doxxing, and LITERAL crimes -- as in the most severe cases, it should never have been tolerated in the first place.
Secondly, I wanted to add - I've been apart of this game for a pretty long while, and lately, my motivation has been at an all time low. A lot of discourse in the community has had me feeling less motivated, and a lot of the unclarity about what the GMs will do next has too. But I want ot add-- half the GMs are people I consider friends, or at least people I like -- and they were players too before being GMs. They have to make a lot of hard decisions, and that's important to understand too -- that sort of role does mean at times making decisions people wont like, and with one like this, I really do not know what the right answer is-- though a statement about redoing bans would be good, with some in-place, firm rules so there is no confusion.
For me, though -- mostly, I wanted to say, despite arguments, or so on, and my general feelings about the game -- I do want to see it succeed, and I hope if I get my motivation back I can enjoy it again someday. I've always liked it here, and I'd like to see people take less sides, and actually try to understand each other. Obviously, in some cases, some people are just bad -- and those people should be removed. But I've never been good around conflict, so it can be rough.
That's mostly my two cents, though.
RE: Here we go again - Salsaccino - 02-27-2024
(02-27-2024, 01:20 AM)WaifuApple Wrote: I believe that ultimately dismissing concerns as to how things are handled by the GMs as distasteful and disrespectful to the victims is essentially yourself shirking any accountability for decisions, however messy they may be, in the interests of making those with valid concerns look bad. You cannot in one breath say that people have valid concerns and that you understand them, and then insult the voices that bring them.
People were told to take this to the forums or to modmail, as this would be a better place for that then general. This post seems like an emotional reaction, so it's not exactly the most thought out or anything. Knee jerk is the word I can grant there. There are victims, and those victims have been through a lot, but that does not pave the way for GMs - not the victims themselves - to hide behind that when difficult but understandable questions are asked.
I am not sure where you get the idea I'm hiding behind anything, but I assure you that is far from the truth.
As commendable as the effort is on Hoot's part to attempt to do better and be better, the fact of the matter is that someone's livelihood was put in danger. That is not something you can simply apologize for and "do your time" for. Doxxing should have always been a permanent ban offense, and just because it was not treated that way back in the day does not mean we cannot realize how egregious of a mistake that is and work to amend those mistakes.
The case is an old one, and admittedly pre-dates my time here on Sigrogana Legends 2. That is exactly why it was studied carefully, and exactly why we reached the conclusions we did. Combined with fresh information made available to us, it helped paint a clearer picture surrounding the case and the events that occurred back then. I firmly stand by our decision in this ban, and I will not be wavered in this.
My only regret in any of this is that Hoot was put through this emotional roller coaster, and I do wish them all the best moving forward. However, cases like these cannot afford any exceptions.
(02-27-2024, 01:30 AM)Asellia Wrote: This is a very complicated topic -- I can 100% understand feeling unsafe even if a person had improved since then, if they're still present. I've been severely emotionally scarred and more in the past, in other games. On one hand, I don't like the premise of re-evaluating old bans and redoing punishment if no new 'crimes' were discovered. On the other, I think I'd be okay with it if a solid statement was given that this only applies to doxxing, and LITERAL crimes -- as in the most severe cases, it should never have been tolerated in the first place.
Secondly, I wanted to add - I've been apart of this game for a pretty long while, and lately, my motivation has been at an all time low. A lot of discourse in the community has had me feeling less motivated, and a lot of the unclarity about what the GMs will do next has too. But I want ot add-- half the GMs are people I consider friends, or at least people I like -- and they were players too before being GMs. They have to make a lot of hard decisions, and that's important to understand too -- that sort of role does mean at times making decisions people wont like, and with one like this, I really do not know what the right answer is-- though a statement about redoing bans would be good, with some in-place, firm rules so there is no confusion.
For me, though -- mostly, I wanted to say, despite arguments, or so on, and my general feelings about the game -- I do want to see it succeed, and I hope if I get my motivation back I can enjoy it again someday. I've always liked it here, and I'd like to see people take less sides, and actually try to understand each other. Obviously, in some cases, some people are just bad -- and those people should be removed. But I've never been good around conflict, so it can be rough.
That's mostly my two cents, though.
Re-evaluating cases will be reserved for similarly extreme circumstances such as this instance. It's not something we will do lightly, as we understand how concerning it may be that previously banned members who are doing better for themselves facing more ban time simply because some old logs were fished up (as an example).
This is not something that will be abused, and the GM team works vigilantly to ensure this is the case.
RE: Here we go again - WaifuApple - 02-27-2024
So long as it's recognised that being critical of the GMs, their handling things, and their ultimate stances should not be repeatedly misconstrued as something against the victims themselves, that's ultimately what matters to me most in this situation now. You can have all the sympathy for the victims in the case and believe they didn't deserve what they got and still believe the authority involved is mishandling it. This is not a mutually exclusive thing, and does not mean you condone this behaviour. It just means you have concerns about how someone - not the victims themselves - are handling it. That is not anything that is or will ever be the fault of the victim, and tying the two things together like that is bad. It creates a shield of "if you dissent or disagree you're a bad person and don't respect what these people have been through". That's not how that works at all.
I do have minor concerns about how a retroactive ban that should have happened much earlier has led to the developer being allowed to profit off the money of someone who shouldn't have been here if the stance was originally taken, and likely in significant amounts because the banned person was a very big contributor, but that's very much an impossible problem. Just one that definitely sits in my mind.
RE: Here we go again - Balor - 02-27-2024
People like to tell me "We're not saying that doxxing is good Drez." or want to say that "This happened years ago, double jeopardy is fucked up." And these statements are true. They're neat and nifty.
However no one likes to point at the fact that the GM's have consistently said and even I have asked about it. That new evidence was founded regarding the Doxxing case around my wife. Now let me be perfectly fucking frank. I had buried this beef dead, I had thought that I knew everything about the matter as not for the first time my personal security was compromised, my wife's personal security compromised.
The fact that there is something NEW to be added to the table infuriates me, even if it's old. The fact that there was something NEW and bad enough to justify the ban being looked back on by the GM team and re-evaluate their original verdict. A verdict that had to be carried out and executed upon one of the servers most avid financial supporters. Frankly makes me sick.
Frankly the response from everyone to it, has made me even sicker. I hope that you're this patient and forgiving when it's someone you love is affected, and you're made to reface the hurt inflicted upon you by others. I hope that you're this patient when people protest the situation without any context for it. I hope that you're this patient and forgiving. I hope that people consider how people feel about your situation this much. When it's you on the receiving end.
But hey. You're not the victim. So why would you ever fucking care? Fuck off.
RE: Here we go again - Salsaccino - 02-27-2024
(02-27-2024, 01:37 AM)WaifuApple Wrote: So long as it's recognised that being critical of the GMs, their handling things, and their ultimate stances should not be repeatedly misconstrued as something against the victims themselves, that's ultimately what matters to me most in this situation now. You can have all the sympathy for the victims in the case and believe they didn't deserve what they got and still believe the authority involved is mishandling it. This is not a mutually exclusive thing, and does not mean you condone this behaviour. It just means you have concerns about how someone - not the victims themselves - are handling it. That is not anything that is or will ever be the fault of the victim, and tying the two things together like that is bad. It creates a shield of "if you dissent or disagree you're a bad person and don't respect what these people have been through". That's not how that works at all.
I do have minor concerns about how a retroactive ban that should have happened much earlier has led to the developer being allowed to profit off the money of someone who shouldn't have been here if the stance was originally taken, and likely in significant amounts because the banned person was a very big contributor, but that's very much an impossible problem. Just one that definitely sits in my mind.
There is absolutely nothing respectful about undermining a victim's situation and making assumptions on a case you have an unclear picture on. It's damaging, it's hurtful, and it's worthy of condemning.
Just because I am condemning this does not mean I am dismissing some valid concerns brought to the table. I just wish people were more tactful and respectful when broaching this topic, especially when it comes to leaping to the defense of the perpetrator before even considering the victim's situation. Just because you acknowledged their struggle does not make it ok to immediately assume everything must've been peachy for the past 2-3 years this case has aged for.
I'm addressing the concerns that people are rightful in expressing, and condemning the insensitivity equally.
RE: Here we go again - WaifuApple - 02-27-2024
Then my question to you is if airing this out is disrespectful and insensitive, how and where is the right place to? You say there are valid concerns, but where are those valid concerns welcome without the belief of disrespect?
It started in general. Then it was said here or modmail would be the best place for such a discussion. And then here doesn't seem right, either? That's very confusing to me.
RE: Here we go again - Salsaccino - 02-27-2024
(02-27-2024, 01:45 AM)WaifuApple Wrote: Then my question to you is if airing this out is disrespectful and insensitive, how and where is the right place to? You say there are valid concerns, but where are those valid concerns welcome without the belief of disrespect?
It started in general. Then it was said here or modmail would be the best place for such a discussion. And then here doesn't seem right, either? That's very confusing to me.
If someone cannot discuss their concerns in a respectful manner that does not put down the victim's struggles or make egregious assumptions than maybe they shouldn't be "airing this out" to begin with.
I like to think I've adequately tackled the biggest concerns when it comes to re-evaluating old bans. If you disagree, I'd appreciate some feedback on that. What are your remaining questions, if any?