[Skimmy2]

I personally lean towards the "Actor" side of things, despite being a forever GM for my IRL ttrpg groups.

99% of the times when Stevie wound up the center of attention like during weddings or sermons, I'm sweating bullets and nervous AF.
That being said, I've enjoyed nearly every event or storytelling approach in all my time of Sigrogana Legend.

[Turadis]

This is a very interesting and insightful thread, so +1 from me. Wall time.

My immediate thought is that nobody who falls on either extreme end of this proposed spectrum could likely tolerate SL2 as an enviornment for very long. Full on actors would lose patience with all the figurative paperwork necessary to make almost anything happen, and full on writers would lose patience with the general chaos and clashing ideas/egos that naturally arise from a (relatively) large roleplaying community playing out in real time. So we're probably looking at a situation where everybody in a thread like this falls somewhere away from the extremes of the spectrum, and in that light we're probably looking at a bit of a 'survivorship bias' kind of situation when it comes to the preferences of active members of the community.

That said, even skimming this thread reveals a trend that most people here are leaning towards the 'actor' side of the spectrum, and I'm not here to be contrarian about that because so do I. I do dream of the scenario where we can have immersive, mechanically-driven stories where the systems used are suitably fair and fit to task for everyone involved. Making something like that work flawlessly in an RPG specifically is a game design task so monumental that it might as well be the holy grail, though. So it's not like I don't begrudgingly understand why all this OOC organization and communication is necessary. That being said, it seems like there is a large audience for more spontaneous ways to interact with the game.

I dislike how scripted Korvara is. It is even moreso than G6 was if you ask me, due to the several extra layers of player leadership you must contend with. But rather than go off on that topic again, I'd rather talk about some concepts that might give players who want more spontaneity a bit more to work with. Stuff like the player props system was great, but we can go further. Something like making player antagonism work better would require more of a shift in community perspective and setting, which I can't really supply the means to other than suggesting dev go make SL3 using all we've learned throughout SL2. But I can muse on mechanical additions to the game that could give immersive/spontaneous players more room for said spontaneity.

Back when I roleplayed on World of Warcraft, there was a spell called Mind Vision. I'll gloss over the specifics of how it worked, but it let you see through other player's eyes, even from massive distances. This had great RP potential for me, being able to use it both to simulate magically spying on a character, and psionically communicating with them. I loved weird spells with out-of-combat mechanical effects like that that could serve roleplaying well, or even get me suddenly involved in plotlines when I saw something I shouldn't, or was even sought out ICly specifically for my rare ability. It felt great that my character had a cool, rare power that only my class could learn. Mages, specifically, could make portals that any player could use to warp to towns across the world. So you know everyone loved having a mage buddy around. Some mages would even sell the service in-character. Druids could shapeshift into birds or fish-things that really could fly or breathe underwater with their own unique applications in espionage or travel RP situations. So many weird abilities like that.

I have very few refined ideas regarding how you could specifically integrate non-combat powers into something like SL2, and how you would limit them so not every character can use them. Maybe traits with specific class or stat requirements? Maybe new kinds of professions with a different vibe? Maybe a whole new system? It's the subject for an entirely new thread on it's own, probably. But wouldn't it be cool to be able to Nature Walk, Summon, Blink, Scry, Telepathically Communicate, Shapeshift, Make Portals, or however many new powers we could think of out of combat? And have them actually do something mechanically?

Alternatively, there's always the return of player housing, which we had a thread about not too long ago. I know I banged on about the integration of what eventually became event spaces, and got what I wanted in the end. (Thank you dev you're the best) So it feels a bit cheeky to ask for even more in this regard. But the spaces could reasonably co-exist, and giving players back some means of creating their own spaces helps with the hosting of IC community functions, as well as capital E Events.

Alternatively alternatively, there's potential for a shift in current or future enviornments far from civilization to try and lessen the chokehold that nations could have on them. Perhaps due to incliment conditions, magical bullshit, or just Dev saying 'No.' Creating a larger space where smaller, more spontaneous stories and antagonists could exist more freely without worry of needing to contest with existing authorities.

But overall, what may probably be my least extreme suggestion may be the inclusion of 'examine spots'. Which I'm imagining just being signs that have a different, more abstract graphic, like the unique bookshelf sprite that's just a sparkling spot. Sometimes players put up signs to communicate strange goings on in some parts of the world to passers by. It would be pretty nice to have a more immersive type of sign to use for this purpose.

My overall point isn't really that immersive/spontaneous RP is better and I don't think we should move away from or change our perspective on the value that events and eventmins bring to the table. My point is that I feel like this thread and it's replies evidence that there's a sizable chunk of the player population hungry for more outlets for spontaneous RP, and it may be worth considering methods to further satisfy that chunk of the playerbase.

On the somewhat tangential subject of antagonism--I feel like I'm more receptive to random antagonism than most based on the other conversations I've had. But any shifts towards this being more commonly accepted community-wide would probably demand a shift to a setting with a more 'frontier justice' kind of dynamic than the ultra-lawful dynamic that any player-run civilization is inevitably going to adopt. After all if the players want to run competent characters who get in on the action, and the players want to run the government/guard forces, then the players will want to run the government/guard forces as competent actors who get in on the action. So the kind of narrative situation with absent, lazy or incapable law enforcement that enables vigilante/frontier justice isn't going to arise very easily. And all of that is not even getting into the idea that the characters who would oppose spontaneous antagonists tend to outnumber them by a huge degree and would quickly stomp them through sheer numbers in a fair contest. As it stands, my current perspective on spontaneous antangonism is that I don't think it will work and I don't try to do it.

[WaifuApple]

We've reached a general point in Korvara where simulation of an experience is at a degree of low compared to scripted storytelling - the kind of thing that eventmins provide. To me, that comes as a general result of something I feel like I've noticed over the later few months of the game. That is to say the dynamics between nations have shifted. While characters get by at making jabs at other nations on a very small scale, the very nature of these nations interacting feels to have slowed down to a crawl. Activity shifts between each location, some slow down due to a combination of less events and quieter leadership, others pick up with new combinations to explore and a more active leadership pushing for more things going on around there, but for the most part inter-nation things are largely muted or very scripted now.

That comes in good part down to a lot of the nuclear conflicts. One side pushes, another side doesn't want it, and you get this sour spot in which you either keep going in the interests of playing through and it ends up muddled in the end. People have largely rejected that, on some scale. Or you just don't have it happen. It's very hard to get things that are organic but long lasting between two nations without putting in a herculean amount of effort that, in the end, might as well make it feel scripted anyway. I'm not going to talk much on the war, though - rather, this leads me to my next statement.

I've decided to expand upon my perspective somewhat because there aren't many wall of texts outlining a larger point of view from someone who didn't already like G6 more to begin with. A lot of what people seek to make their world more 'simulated' is actually just something I feel like is people saying 'I want more G6, or I want it back', which is a prevailing opinion of some, and fair enough - but you don't get enough people from the Korvara crowd on the forums, largely because the discord has pretty much made coming on here a moot point outside of mechanics for a lot of people. Which leads me to want to speak on the flaws of that - I don't think G6 was very dynamic, honestly. It was the most 'Storytelling' place we've had.

This is down to something specific, I believe - isolation. And I'm not just talking about 'people and cliques'. That's a long contentious topic and I'm sure people have talked about it - debated it - for ages. People, in large because of the nature of G6 being very uninteractable as a locale, were making very isolated worlds and environments. Very much only loosely respecting the world they were in because, let's face it, there just wasn't much there. But that ultimately brought with it a big flaw - in most cases, everything felt isolated. Each successive group or space would feel as if it had no correlation to the last, it would feel like nobody had any particular grounding. Just making places and groups for the sake of making places and groups. People were telling isolated group stories, not simulating a world or an environment.

And this is something I generally want to keep in mind when looking towards the future of Korvara. Grounding everything within, well... Korvara. Korvara has been, in my opinion at least, the most cohesive a world as we've ever gotten by itself. Sure, there's the big stickler of how detached it is from a lot of the G6 lore, but if you look at it as just Korvara, things connect. Nations have ties with one another, groups have ties with nations, you can tangibly get to any location without needing to know where it is first, by pure accident sometimes! Sure, isolation to some extent has settled in between players - I'm not going to retread the steps of other posts that state that because the isolation of players from one another is not the kind of isolation I'm talking about, but those ties are very much still there. Those links are still there to be worked with for anyone who wants to for their stories.

It's easy to get lost in what once was, but there's also a fair share of flaws in what that was. Keep the world connected, enhance what we have. A story in which every actor brings their own set pieces can get overwhelming very fast, so while I'm always for expanding the environment we have to make room for, well... more in general, for a simulative experience to truly work out we should never lose sight of the ground we're on, and work to make our ideas and experiences reflect it and shape it. Not escape from it. The map's a little small and doesn't expand fast enough to keep up with demand, but it's a lot of team effort to do, and hopefully more mappers will help with that. But I think the fact that for the most part it's all on map is just part of the magic for me. Events expand into whimsical domains but when it comes down to it you make do with the environment you're in, because that's the environment you're simulating, those are the stories you're telling. Just got to expand on that environment some more.

A little rambly, but that's my perspective on things. That I want a see a world that flows together, one in which the only thing stopping you from going to certain places is the IC, even if that IC is as simple as you being escorted off premises because you stepped somewhere you shouldn't. A world that is more supportive of more groups, but not one that breaks shape all the time. Part of the experience should be how you fit in that world, how the things you wanna do make sense in it and the environments it has. A bigger map would be nice but I quite like the concept of what we've got, we just need to work towards scaling it up because we've sort of run out of space.

[Neus]

Prefacing this post by saying I'm kind of tired while writing it and am going to ramble, so apologies if this isn't very coherent.

I dislike how scripted Korvara is. It is even moreso than G6 was if you ask me, due to the several extra layers of player leadership you must contend with. But rather than go off on that topic again, I'd rather talk about some concepts that might give players who want more spontaneity a bit more to work with. Stuff like the player props system was great, but we can go further. Something like making player antagonism work better would require more of a shift in community perspective and setting, which I can't really supply the means to other than suggesting dev go make SL3 using all we've learned throughout SL2. But I can muse on mechanical additions to the game that could give immersive/spontaneous players more room for said spontaneity.

As I hinted in my post, I feel very similarly.

Rather than Korvara feeling like a flowing river where you can jump in and go along with the current, it is more like four pots of standing water where you have to take precaution to not let any water spill. At least, this has been my impression lately. Putting it in more understandable terms, you do have to a lot of steps you are expected to take for even basic things, in regards to communicating your whole intent with the leadership and anyone else involved, to make sure 'it's cool' and you aren't stepping on anyone's toes. If you fail to do that (and sometimes, even if you do) - you get people yelling at you. It makes doing anything very exhausting.

This isn't necessarily the fault of any individual, and I don't think that total chaos is a very good alternative, either - it can also be overwhelming for the people dealing with it. But I do think it's, in part, the reason why things have turned inward somewhat, with people preferring to do self-contained events because they don't need to worry about dealing with extra bureaucracy that way (there's nothing wrong with events, for the record, they're good times). I do also believe that OOC drama and general negativity also plays a part, however. Even I have not been immune to that, and I won't lie - it's depressing, discouraging, and demotivating, to have IC actions or plotlines met with OOC blowback due to their spontaneity (among other things).

I also see a lot of good things happening on the daily despite what I've said, so don't take this as me being blamey or negative.

I have very few refined ideas regarding how you could specifically integrate non-combat powers into something like SL2, and how you would limit them so not every character can use them. Maybe traits with specific class or stat requirements? Maybe new kinds of professions with a different vibe? Maybe a whole new system? It's the subject for an entirely new thread on it's own, probably. But wouldn't it be cool to be able to Nature Walk, Summon, Blink, Scry, Telepathically Communicate, Shapeshift, Make Portals, or however many new powers we could think of out of combat? And have them actually do something mechanically?

Alternatively, there's always the return of player housing, which we had a thread about not too long ago. I know I banged on about the integration of what eventually became event spaces, and got what I wanted in the end. (Thank you dev you're the best) So it feels a bit cheeky to ask for even more in this regard. But the spaces could reasonably co-exist, and giving players back some means of creating their own spaces helps with the hosting of IC community functions, as well as capital E Events.

I think that I would rather try to do what I can to make the world more interested in interacting as a whole first (not to say that I'm against the ideas presented, nor that I won't do anything mechanical on a smaller scale until then). I'm still developing my ideas on how to accomplish this, but I think that the game itself could do a better job of supporting such things mechanically. Ultimately interactions with other nations are just fluff, even within your own nation the things your character is supposed to do are limited by RP situations happening that let them do their job.

I don't think it's something that systems can entirely solve but I do think, for example, making interactions between nations less based on fluff has more of a recurrent, long term benefit. The same could be said for balancing 'things happening because someone wanted to make them happen' and 'things happening because of something someone else did' a bit more evenly. Sometimes circumstances need a good shake up, sometimes relationships need a tangible reason to change; and sometimes that needs to happen from the 'DM' level.

I'm not sure if it's something I can accomplish, but it's something that I've been thinking more and more about lately.

There's been a lot of other interesting things said in the thread that I agree with, but I'm nap bound for the moment.

[Snake]

Boss man, whatever you come up with you have my whole support.

I think Korvara's been rolling enough in its "mainland-esque" mindset/ruleset, it can afford to be a little more innovative with its current approach. And doubly thumbs up if it means new thought mechanic issues to deal with, such as having to actually manage one's nation a la what was attempted with the G6 Marshals.

If things happen and people dislike this or that because it's starting to seem less and less like their G6 things of "sitting around Cellsvich talking smack of this and that", that's why G6 still exists, no? It's empty but it's still very much available. So no fear on that.

[Shujin]

I think a big reason why Korvara is turning into G6, is people who would rather enjoy a G6 roleplay Experience would still want to play with the new toys. And Korvara just happens to get all the new fun toys. So even if you are a G6 enjoyer, you will feel left out if you do not play on Korvara. So these perspectives naturally clash cause many of our community have been conditioned by G6 very handholdy nature. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just bites when different expectations collide. Only so much Dev can do about it either.

I think at this point it's probably better to expand in places that are less influenced by the 4 nations, but still have things going on, on them and allow people to just actually achieve more. But yeah a more refined Marshal-like system for the 4 nations makes a lot of sense to make things more graspable.

[Snake]

And as a side-note, make sure to get chaos amped a little more. Things are way too peaceful, and having to crutch on eventmins to make things happen is probably what's dialing things back a notch on G6ism, where people only logged in to participate in events then logged out until Fern/Kari had a new cool shiny prepared.

The deal here's not limiting the eventmins' work, but loosening the leash on players.

First thing that comes to mind? What we discussed before. We lack Law's End in this setting. Law's End was tiny in G6, but opened up a LOT of opportunities for roleplay. We lack a neutral place where no one can just go "imma call the cops on u".

I had in mind that it was what Slydria was working on, with the teasing of Wastes new stuff, but it was likely just the latest Behemoth. ;-;

[Snake]

If a place's going to belong to a nation anyway, may as well as be a part of its nation to not miss out on missions. What I'm trying to convey is a place similar to Albedo/Law's End, with a strong emphasis over 'this is not for nation-loving people to be in'.

A place with no real rules or laws beyond one's strength. Where anarchy is its own system, as an absence of other systems. Hopefully after Grand Summoner gets nerfed, that is.

And if this place's what was once Beggar's Hole or Fairview? They kind of lost their Law's End rights after the nation dramas. Which is why it's important for those places to be rule-protected to be a lawless place with immense resistance to any attempts to convert it into any form of a spectrum. Plus, we do need an evil villain hub of some sort.

[Skimmy2]

I think that I would rather try to do what I can to make the world more interested in interacting as a whole first (not to say that I'm against the ideas presented, nor that I won't do anything mechanical on a smaller scale until then). I'm still developing my ideas on how to accomplish this, but I think that the game itself could do a better job of supporting such things mechanically. Ultimately interactions with other nations are just fluff, even within your own nation the things your character is supposed to do are limited by RP situations happening that let them do their job.

I don't think it's something that systems can entirely solve but I do think, for example, making interactions between nations less based on fluff has more of a recurrent, long term benefit. The same could be said for balancing 'things happening because someone wanted to make them happen' and 'things happening because of something someone else did' a bit more evenly. Sometimes circumstances need a good shake up, sometimes relationships need a tangible reason to change; and sometimes that needs to happen from the 'DM' level.

I'm not sure if it's something I can accomplish, but it's something that I've been thinking more and more about lately.

There's been a lot of other interesting things said in the thread that I agree with, but I'm nap bound for the moment.

In regards to adding Mechanic based interactions. (And solidifying the permanent nations that Korvara revolves around.)
You'd be surprised at how easy it is to spark conflict, dialogue, and interaction by simply adding resources/MacGuffins that must be contested and vied over.

As an example, currently map requests may cost an amount of LegallyDistinctMurai or possibly materials by a Player. Imagine if your Nation also required X number of resources, say "2 Lumber". Now your Nation (and you the Player) have a vested interest in securing X Resources for X amount of Time so that you may have X Built in game.

Taken another way, It is well established that Geladyian land is hurting for food to munch on; and while it's established decently enough through roleplay and lore, actually adding "Food" as a National resource does wonders to set the scene. As an example, say Geladyne produces 5 Units of Food, but requires 10 Units of Food or X will happen. (Roleplayed bad things, or if mechanically needed, something as mundane as NPC Shop prices increasing or resting at Inns healing only a fraction as munch).
Now the Geladyne leader and to an extent, it's players have a vested interest in somehow securing those extra 5 Units of Food, whether diplomatically or otherwise.
Throw in resource scarcity, such as each Nation requiring 10 Food, but Korvara only having 38ish to go around; and suddenly the land isint the peaceful paradise that it is trending to be.

This, of course, is not to say that we need to turn SL2 into a 4x strategy game mind you. You yourself seem to have some of your own ideas bouncing around in your head; whatever that you decide upon, don't be surprised at what can be accomplished by simply dangling a carrot above our heads.