[Trexmaster]

Well, what if, and hear me, what IF...

Spirit Mirror gets a visual indicator which is well-deserved, but, "Concealment Passives" like Mysterious and Mask of Metal remove all visual indicators from a character such as Narcus, etc?

It'd be fair for everyone like that.

What? No. That'd take us right back to where we started and even buff Mysterious and Mask of Metal, I'm curious how you came to that conclusion after reading everything that was presented. If visual indicators were hidden by those statuses that'd defeat the purpose of Spirit Mirror having a visual indicator in the first place since we'd already see it visible through status effects.

Autumn already covered how this is only a big issue with Spirit Mirror specifically as opposed to status-hiding effects in general. In the future it's entirely possible we may get similar effects added but that can be handled as they come.

The entire argument against Spirit Mirror can be boiled down to the fact it benefits anyone who hides their status effects and subsequently have to be treated as if they have a Spirit Mirror by players who would be susceptible to it. This becomes a problem since there are very few if any good answers to a Spirit Mirror that won't tip the fight in the Spirit Mirror user's favor, so on average 3m will be spent to deal minor damage that may or may not actually be reflected back at the projectile user. Dispels are entirely unreliable when dealing with Mysterious/Mask of Metal as you do not know if the person's buffs actually ran out unless you used a dispel with such a high value that it did not reach its maximum dispel count to be sure Reflect Projectile wasn't among them.

[Snake]

I'unno. It's more like the point of Mysterious, Record Erasure and Mask of Metal to begin with to leave an enemy guessing.

I'm not against Spirit Mirror's fiasco, I think it should get some form of indicator, yes, but the real eyebrow raiser for me is why bother with the mentioned passives if someone can just see your sleeve cards anyway due to your char's many cool and sparkly overlays? The VFX indicator would be a QoL to save time double clicking someone to see certain buffs in the end, as long as it doesn't touch the mentioned passives, or make them enhance negatively the purpose of an indicator, as dumb as it sounds.

I think it's fine for concealment passives to actually contribute more to keeping you unpredictable and unreadable for your enemies, as annoying as it is to be on the receiving end of that, I understand. But if these skills were not meant to be like that, Dev wouldn't have made them, and made the meta-game of knowledge more fair/gave those a form of counterplay.

One thing is actively hiding your surprises with passives made to bamboozle enemy players such as the ones mentioned, which is very, very limited to Heavy Armor + Helmet item combo or Spellthief for 1 SP, another is saving a ranged/projectile user player's time from double clicking an enemy in paranoia their stuff will be uno reverse'd.

[Trexmaster]

I'unno. It's more like the point of Mysterious, Record Erasure and Mask of Metal to begin with to leave an enemy guessing.

I'm not against Spirit Mirror's fiasco, I think it should get some form of indicator, yes, but the real eyebrow raiser for me is why bother with the mentioned passives if someone can just see your sleeve cards anyway due to your char's many cool and sparkly overlays? The VFX indicator would be a QoL to save time double clicking someone to see certain buffs in the end, as long as it doesn't touch the mentioned passives, or make them enhance negatively the purpose of an indicator, as dumb as it sounds.

I think it's fine for concealment passives to actually contribute more to keeping you unpredictable and unreadable for your enemies, as annoying as it is to be on the receiving end of that, I understand. But if these skills were not meant to be like that, Dev wouldn't have made them, and made the meta-game of knowledge more fair/gave those a form of counterplay.

One thing is actively hiding your surprises with passives made to bamboozle enemy players such as the ones mentioned, which is very, very limited to Heavy Armor + Helmet item combo or Spellthief for 1 SP, another is saving a ranged/projectile user player's time from double clicking an enemy in paranoia their stuff will be uno reverse'd.

As I mentioned in my reply to Tana, Mysterious/Mask of Metal have plenty of other things they can hide that still provide tangible benefits to the user. Including but not limited to:

• HP/FP - The example I first gave. Makes it so your enemies are not aware of what would be needed for lethal/how much FP you have remaining to keep performing actions, which can be extremely important to dodging lethal in some scenarios.
  
• Debuff Duration - If you're a Glykin non-visible debuffs may expire on you faster than your enemy may expect, which can prove advantageous if your opponent is unaware how long their infliction will actually last, as well as forcing everyone to manually track turns if they want to work around when debuffs would lift from you/abuse one presently active.
  
• Current Buffs - Another aspect of Mysterious that forces players to actively keep track of what's been cast on someone hiding their status effects to understand what they're dealing with. Unless you have textbook knowledge of every buff you won't be able to predict when they'll fall off exactly and in some cases it can be variable depending on factors you cannot ascertain during battle unless they reveal it to you, such as Install with Bonder vs Grand Summoner, or even if they're a Mechanation. There's only a small handful of buffs with visual indicators that reveal themselves through Mysterious, such as Mage enchants, Dragon Swords, and Warding/Barrier tattoos.
  

What I'm asking for here is that Spirit Mirror be one of those visual exceptions to being hidden by Mysterious. Not only because there's a lot more Mysterious can hide and benefit from, but because of how overbearing Reflect Projectile is to force those who'd be affected by it to guess against the presence of or lack thereof. It'd be less egregious if it was only Spellthief who had access to it but Heavy Armor + a helmet isn't terribly restrictive. Anyone wanting to stack physical armor is likely going to be running that setup as well as Black Knights being actively incentivized to at least use Heavy Armor. I'd at least say paying two of your six item slots (with one being an accessory, which you have two) is less of a price than one of your two class slots.

The whole point of giving Spirit Mirror a visual would be to circumvent it being able to be concealed, so only those who actively wear it will benefit from it. If so many people with Mysterious/Mask of Metal are using Spirit Mirrors that they'd feel their passives are useless if it was revealed to others then that's indicative of the problem here. I cannot stress enough that specifically with Reflect Projectile, the match up will barely change if one is present VS if one cannot be determined to be present or not. Projectile users will either have to knowingly play around it or play around it assuming one exists to avoid being set back substantially because of it.

If people are vehemently against Spirit Mirror being visible through Mysterious, then my suggestion would instead be to actively nerf Spirit Mirror. Another idea I had aside from allowing it to be broken via physical damage is that Spirit Mirror could instead confer a different buff with a 5-10 round CD, costs 3m. 75% Projectile-damage retaliation for 3~ rounds. Your opponent may see it but they'll be disincentivized to attack you at all if they're susceptible to it for as long as the buff lasts or provide some damage value if they choose to attack you multiple times during the buff, but this gives the opportunity to work around it either through the Mirrored enchant to mitigate damage taken, removing the buff knowing it's there, or avoiding Projectile attacks if possible while it is active. Thus giving the item counterplay.

[adamkad1]

If people are vehemently against Spirit Mirror being visible through Mysterious, then my suggestion would instead be to actively nerf Spirit Mirror. Another idea I had aside from allowing it to be broken via physical damage is that Spirit Mirror could instead confer a different buff with a 5-10 round CD, costs 3m. 75% Projectile-damage retaliation for 3~ rounds. Your opponent may see it but they'll be disincentivized to attack you at all if they're susceptible to it for as long as the buff lasts or provide some damage value if they choose to attack you multiple times during the buff, but this gives the opportunity to work around it either through the Mirrored enchant to mitigate damage taken, removing the buff knowing it's there, or avoiding Projectile attacks if possible while it is active. Thus giving the item counterplay.

Magic mirror being something that's more than one and done is nice idea.
Also ye mysterious/mask of metal too good