[Shujin]

pretty sure it needs 8 anyway to even be used, though the reason I think its too much is simply because it deletes up to 14 M worth if you happen to be faster and building SS is actually easy as fuck. Thats a stun on crack, which gives you alot of time to either start rebulding SS or recover. In team fights it deletes one player for up to two turns giving you a huge advantage. The question to me is, if it also really also needs that or if it needs to take an L somewhere else. Cause that skill is stupidly abuseable in a not fun way.

I can understand though the feeling of wanting this skill to be great as the classes ultimate skill. I too want it to be good. But I also want it to be funner and possibly have counters.

I also like to point out that this isn't really about Grandupper, just more about data collection for when skills feel fair with this specific tag so future implementations feel good and current ones that might feel overboard be adjusted.
And yes I hear you, the game has worse problems right now. But we literally have 80 pages worth of text about those already.

[Balor]

pretty sure it needs 8 anyway to even be used, though the reason I think its too much is simply because it deletes up to 14 M worth if you happen to be faster and building SS is actually easy as fuck. Thats a stun on crack, which gives you alot of time to either start rebulding SS or recover. In team fights it deletes one player for up to two turns giving you a huge advantage. The question to me is, if it also really also needs that or if it needs to take an L somewhere else. Cause that skill is stupidly abuseable in a not fun way.

I can understand though the feeling of wanting this skill to be great as the classes ultimate skill. I too want it to be good. But I also want it to be funner and possibly have counters.

I also like to point out that this isn't really about Grandupper, just more about data collection for when skills feel fair with this specific tag so future implementations feel good and current ones that might feel overboard be adjusted.
And yes I hear you, the game has worse problems right now. But we literally have 80 pages worth of text about those already.

I am sort of in agreement on the other abilities that need to be addressed to be honest.  I feel you on the matter that Grandupper is a stun on crack, but perhaps this is my hangup for remaining on tank boxers, but it takes upwards to 4 turns to rebuild 8, and the FP cost of that build is still a mountain.  Where Felsmnage is still the better of the two Boxer finishers.  I think it's probably the frequency of dodge boxers and SS gain via evasion that's boosted it's use as of late.  But I think we can address it in other ways if we feel it really needs to be touched on.

Mostly addressing Grandupper on the matter that it's the skill I am most familiar with besides explosion which while I don't think needs a 6m cost, but likely another round of CD.  

I think that Grandupper's shift in turn order is also a lowkey advantage for the person getting Granduppered. However I would be game to see like different like effects for Grandupper that would share the same novelty as it's current 8 Schwarz expenditure.

[Shujin]

Well yeah, I agree. though in team fights tanky boxers can still go faster, which means you can have both, the 14 M deletion and tankyness.
The shift in turnorder also happens with stun actually, which makes me lowkey think stun, if you are playing with it in mind with dullahans or self stunning via Rock/Wind or Ki Awoken is a buff actually rather than a debuff.
Though thats one of the downsides of the new turn order.

I still think a tag that works like a "Half autohit" would be really beneficial for some skills. Explosion could be that and even lose the CDs. (Half autohit meaning that only one of the two rolls is garunteed to hit)
Falconstrike and stuff would also be good candidates for that.

[FaeLenx]

Saying explosion is a problem in any way ignores the fact that it's using a damage type that has the most possible counters and also has the most likely counters for someone to just randomly have without any knowledge of your kit when they start facing you. The only reason evasion ignore would matter is if their attacks wouldn't normally hit so that they would use something better, and if they're relying solely on explosion to hit you and build entirely around that then they probably have some godawful build that does little else.

The same is true for most moves mentioned.

The strongest builds are still going to be ones with high damage tied to attacks that still require you to pass an evasion check. If your build revolves entirely around unreasonable levels evasion and you can't tank a wet paper towel that someone throws at you when they just happen to have an evasion ignoring thing in their kit or are hard countered by someone who made a meme build that ignores evasion but can't even match half the damage on a regular crit-dagger build nowadays, then you just have to accept that you made a meme build and your stacked buffs aren't actually just an instant 'I win' button.

[Lolzytripd]

Clearly, we need to allow grand upper targets to invoke/ self buff in the air

[Kazzy]

I mean, if you got wings maybe. I never understood why mach 5'ing a corbie into the sky worked.