03-03-2015, 05:52 PM
I have a challenge for everyone to attempt before replying to this.
- Make a NEW (non LE'd) character. Summoner/??? (Normal, pre-promo growths, no existing youkai, etc)
- Do not play as a Lich, Wyverntouched, Hyattr, or Dullahan. (Eliminating 100+% FP races and FP recovery racials)
- Level AS a summoner, ACTUALLY summoning. (Do not just use GS for the regen as you nuke evetrything with Evoker.)
- Do NOT "RELY" on your other class or racials. (A little is fine, but MAJOR emphasis on summoning.)
- Do not only grind. Do some Raids, some RP, etc. (Only you get the exp. This will make your youkai comparatively weak against stuff your level)
- Do not transfer ANYTHING (Money, food, gear, etc) from another character at ANY point. Do not use player shops. (Preventing exploitation
- Do NOT get any help. You are solo. (People don't like partying with summoners since the turns take so long. Sure, you may have friends, but play in the shoes of a newbie summoner.)
My proposed changes are for PVE balancing, and if all you're going to do is bitch about PVP, then kindly back off because you're not helping. I am NOT proposing to buff summoners.I am proposing minor tweaks that will have an absolutely minimal impact on high level summoners (outside of reducing Youkai skill power to also lower their FP costs) while benefitting lower levelled ones.
One at a time, I'll outline why levelling as a summoner is such a nightmare. In italics below each point, I'll address a common counterargument and explain why that counterargument is simply wrong. At the very bottom, marked by a bold header, I'll list proposed changes.
- A youkai needs a maxed affinity skill, or it's growths will be utter garbage. This means that before you can even START summoning, your character will need to be AT LEAST level 6. So right away, your youkai are a lower level than you. Very very early on, this doesn't seem like a problem. Until you factor in that this doesn't even factor in the FP sustaining cost (which you cannot yet support without at least Cracked Mirror) yet, you won't have the means to get multiple Youkai at the start so the rest will be even farther behind, and they can only level once at a time, even from an occurrence that would shoot you up multiple levels (such as Kinu 1) which sets them back even further. And to make matters even WORSE, they ONLY get combat experience! Sidequests? You level up, your Youkai don't! RP exp? You get exp, your youkai don't! Raid experience from scars and completion? You get exp, your youkai don't! It's entirely plausible to get to level 40+ with all your youkai STILL UNDER LEVEL 10!
(As a recent example, I made a new character just last night. I was heading to Dormeho to get my alias right after a Black Beast raid, and repaired a few scars while I was there. As a result, she is Level 18 while her Youkai is level 4. This character still cannot beat the level 10 Jammer Omega in the Jammer Cave, and is broke from repeated attempts. Why? Because she's a summoner who actually summons, her youkai is level 4 due to no scar experience, and her stats are too low to fight it straight up, due to pre-promo growths.)
"Oh, but you CAN catch them up, so quit your bitching!" The only way to catch them up (outside of being level 60 and simply not gaining any more levels is... and get this... grinding them at a place over 10 levels above you, so they get more experience than you. But if you're struggling with things your own level, good luck trying to do this without help! Sure, a Priest/GS can realistically do this now, thanks to Shine Knights, but one specific class combo being able to do something doesn't automatically absolve the issue. That's like saying, as an example, that an idea for a new miniboss type who absorbs every damage type is acceptable because Nihilists exist, when that miniboss can appear in the tutorial battle.
- Next, is the FP upkeep. Early on, you absolutely need Cracked Mirror to sustain a single youkai, as your max FP is so low. Factor in what I said above about affinities, and it's actually closer to level 11 before you can actually reliably keep a single youkai going. As a youkai levels up and becomes less useless, it's cost also increases. This is infuriating for a number of reasons. Does a mage suddenly need more FP to cast Fir just because they levelled up? No, they can leave Fir at rank 1 and it still does respectable damage because it scales with their Will! But a low level youkai is completely useless. While a GS can keep 3 level 1 youkai out to help level small groups up a little faster, by the time they're closer to level 30 (still too low to be of much help against level 50+ mobs) a single Youkai will cost 11 FP per turn, making it 33 (18 per turn after the FP regen, in addition to anything the summoner needs to do, like Reihou to revive the youkai) to keep those same 3 youkai out. This is complete and utter murder for BDPs, as this is over several turns (As a youkai only moves the turn AFTER it is summoned, and nemies will ALWAYS try to run for you rather than the Youkai, meaning that you'll be taking needless damage as you wait for them to either start moving if summoned in melee range, or catch up to the enemy if summoned at a distance) and several battles, as opposed to being able to wrap things up far sooner (for less total FP spent) or for lower costs with other classes (for a comparable number of turns). And I'll even give evoke scaling it's own point below!
Yes. I get why this is needed for PVP. But other games have varying mechanics for PVE and PVP, why can't we? I don't think a class should be such a PVE horror to level as, just to balance PVP. I've addressed this below in my proposed change to suggesting ways to keep PVP the same while easing off on PVE
"Just use food! The tutorial gives you like three loaves of bread, anyways, and cherry pie is only 20 mura!" Yeah, brilliant, those loaves of bread are a whole 5%, so 5% of 30 FP is... uhhh.... 1 FP per battle. And your character gets hungry faster than you can afford those cherry pies, off the 1 mura per fight from the top floor of the Jammer Cave. Even later on, unless you're a lich with Evoker as a main class to maximize FP gains, a store bought 20% FP heal could very well not amount to much compared to the costs involved with playing a summoner. And it gets worse if you're not levelling as some kind of caster, since Summoner actually lends itself well to any theme, so Melee/Summoner is viable, just with far less FP for food to work it's magic with.
Also, "Just install Wawa, duh!" Yeah, half of Wawa's level, with a Luck+Level based chance. So let's say my Wawa is level 8, and I have 4 luck. That's a 12% chance to drain 4 FP. That's not even worth the install cost. Yes, Wawa Install is absolutely amazing once you level Wawa up. But good luck doing that as a brand new character who didn't just grind Wawa up from level 60!
- Youkai skill power and costs. Again, the scaling is bull. I'd rather keep Stat + 10 or so for 15 FP compared to Stat + 60 for closer to 70 FP. Furthermore, this hurts the Youkai as well, due to skills like Energy Transfer and Spirit Regeneration covering a base amount of FP that never scales up with the scaling of the skills. It gets even dumber when you consider that some youkai skills can be evoked from a level 1 youkai for no penalty (Such as Seeker Flame, as it is based off the level of the user, not the Youkai) while the cost increases with the youkai's level for absolutely zero benefit. The only solution? Do not level the youkai up. Meaning it can never be summoned again once the evoke hits that amount you want to spend on the skill.
"But if the costs are lowered, they'll be way too strong!" My suggestions involve rebalancing power vs cost. They won't get their full +60 anymore. I admit that damage could get a little ridiculous sometimes, even outdamaging the strongest possible weapons in the game used with non-cheesed skills. It's little wonder Youkai are considered overpowered! By rebalancing the power vs costs for PVE, I think they'd be more balanced in PVP, too! See my suggestions below!
- The friendship system sounds like an interesting idea on paper. But the Youkai start off rebellious at the base level. This makes early game summoners even more hellish than ever before. Trying to level a youkai will result in it unsummoning itself, and trying to install to save your life (elemental absorb, etc) will result in them refusing. I also think an Evoke failed one time, but that could have been lag and it not appearing in the log, as the other occurrences had messages. And if you're a low level, how reliably do you think you can find youkai gifts? I'm not saying the friendship system is bad. It just needs a few minor adjustments to make new lowbie summoners not an infuriating experience.
I've not spoken to anyone about this yet, so I do not know common arguments in favor of this. I can definitly imagine, but I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, so I'll refrain from making assumptions. Still, as this is a new system, I suspect it's under some evaluation, like when Battle Weight was new. Like I said, from a base concept, I like the system. It's just too punishing at lower levels.
SO WHAT DO I PROPOSE WE DO ABOUT EACH OF THESE POINTS I'VE LISTED?
Affinity and levelling:
- Add additional benefits to Affinity in exchange for removing the growth boost. Raise the base growths by 10% instead of Affinity's current 15% to compensate. For example, new affinity benefits could include improved loyalty/ easier friendship gains with that particular family of youkai or/and a charisma-like bonus that boosts Youkai stats further if within x many spaces of their summoner. This would let a summoner use a new Youkai immediately at the start of the game (Or rather, once Cracked Mirror has enough levels in it) without perma-gimping them if they don't wait until affinity is maxed, while adding very real reasons to actually WANT to raise affinity rather than simple obligation.
- Add some way of catching lower level youkai up faster. Perhaps giving them improved exp scaling based on how low their level is compared to yours, up to a maximum level of 2/3 as their highest possible boosted experience level If they still only level up once per fight, this will change absolutely nothing at high levels, while allowing lower/medium levels to realistically get Youkai to a state where they're not useless. (Level 30 player, level 1 youkai? Level 20 in 20 battles, so they can start catching up a bit faster, as opposed to taking so long to hit 20 that you're already 40. Meanwhile, a level 60 summoner's Youkai are already level 40 in 40 battles, so this changes nothing for higher level players)
Upkeep FP cost scaling:
Option A: Only apply the scaling to PVP, or maybe make PVE only half-scaled.
Option B: Add a skill to regen some FP (say 10% or 20, whichever is higher) after every battle (Would only affect PVE)
Option C: Something akin to a Dullahan's Soul Generator, where unused M is converted into FP. Encourage pacifist pure summoners as opposed to the stereotype of "LOL SUMMON AND THEN GO ALL OUT WITH MY OTHER CLASS, TOO!" This change WOULD affect PVP, but I personally feel it is balanced, as it would basically let you sustain another youkai by DOING NOTHING, YOURSELF.
Youkai skill scaling
- Instead of Youkai Level PLUS stat (for likely an approximate 120 damage before weaknesses/resistances/defenses) make it Youkai Level OR stat, + A static bonus, just like normal skills, with a slightly larger bonus to account for the lack of weapon scaling (As opposed to a tome's magic boost, or a weapon's power) To compensate for this large drop in power, make the FP costs far more reasonable, more in-line with comparable spells. This will make PVE summoning more sustainable, while giving PVP summoners a balance between a nerf (Much lower output) but at least more sustainability (A healer can't just manage to endure a few rounds and then fight back once the Youkai are drained)
Examples:
- Fairy Lance: Same scaling, bonus and cost as R5 Holy Arrow. Line length can be adjusted. Longer shot costs more FP.
- Parraeta: Asrai Level without bonus, 1:1 drain ratio (As opposed to Asrai Level x 2, and a 1/2 drain.) Costs a flat 25 FP.
- Hunter Wind: Will/2 + Seiiryu Level /2 with no bonus, but causes Lv 15 Hunted regardless of Youkai level. Costs a flat 25 FP.
- Thunder Claw: Str without bonus, if used on a feared opponent, causes Lv 10 hesitation for 2 rounds, costs a flat 25 FP.
- Whirlpool: User's level without bonus. Can be adjusted. Base cost is 10, with an extra 10 FP cost per adjusted range (3-6 range; max range costs 40)
- Seeker Flame: User's Level without bonus. Costs a flat 10 FP.
You get the idea. Much weaker youkai skills, but FP costs that are long term sustainable.
Friendship system
Option A: Start the base happiness level higher, so they're not rebellious little shits right out of the gate. Sure, you haven't earned their trust yet, but a contract is a contract, and you don't just go "fuck this, I'm out" if you have a contract. Why are they giving you a hard time if you haven't gotten them badly hurt yet?
Option B: Allow Affinity Skills to raise loyalty/ happiness, so you can at least prioritize one youkai who will listen early on.
Thank you for reading my wall of text. I'm hopeful for reasonable discussion.
- Make a NEW (non LE'd) character. Summoner/??? (Normal, pre-promo growths, no existing youkai, etc)
- Do not play as a Lich, Wyverntouched, Hyattr, or Dullahan. (Eliminating 100+% FP races and FP recovery racials)
- Level AS a summoner, ACTUALLY summoning. (Do not just use GS for the regen as you nuke evetrything with Evoker.)
- Do NOT "RELY" on your other class or racials. (A little is fine, but MAJOR emphasis on summoning.)
- Do not only grind. Do some Raids, some RP, etc. (Only you get the exp. This will make your youkai comparatively weak against stuff your level)
- Do not transfer ANYTHING (Money, food, gear, etc) from another character at ANY point. Do not use player shops. (Preventing exploitation
- Do NOT get any help. You are solo. (People don't like partying with summoners since the turns take so long. Sure, you may have friends, but play in the shoes of a newbie summoner.)
My proposed changes are for PVE balancing, and if all you're going to do is bitch about PVP, then kindly back off because you're not helping. I am NOT proposing to buff summoners.I am proposing minor tweaks that will have an absolutely minimal impact on high level summoners (outside of reducing Youkai skill power to also lower their FP costs) while benefitting lower levelled ones.
One at a time, I'll outline why levelling as a summoner is such a nightmare. In italics below each point, I'll address a common counterargument and explain why that counterargument is simply wrong. At the very bottom, marked by a bold header, I'll list proposed changes.
- A youkai needs a maxed affinity skill, or it's growths will be utter garbage. This means that before you can even START summoning, your character will need to be AT LEAST level 6. So right away, your youkai are a lower level than you. Very very early on, this doesn't seem like a problem. Until you factor in that this doesn't even factor in the FP sustaining cost (which you cannot yet support without at least Cracked Mirror) yet, you won't have the means to get multiple Youkai at the start so the rest will be even farther behind, and they can only level once at a time, even from an occurrence that would shoot you up multiple levels (such as Kinu 1) which sets them back even further. And to make matters even WORSE, they ONLY get combat experience! Sidequests? You level up, your Youkai don't! RP exp? You get exp, your youkai don't! Raid experience from scars and completion? You get exp, your youkai don't! It's entirely plausible to get to level 40+ with all your youkai STILL UNDER LEVEL 10!
(As a recent example, I made a new character just last night. I was heading to Dormeho to get my alias right after a Black Beast raid, and repaired a few scars while I was there. As a result, she is Level 18 while her Youkai is level 4. This character still cannot beat the level 10 Jammer Omega in the Jammer Cave, and is broke from repeated attempts. Why? Because she's a summoner who actually summons, her youkai is level 4 due to no scar experience, and her stats are too low to fight it straight up, due to pre-promo growths.)
"Oh, but you CAN catch them up, so quit your bitching!" The only way to catch them up (outside of being level 60 and simply not gaining any more levels is... and get this... grinding them at a place over 10 levels above you, so they get more experience than you. But if you're struggling with things your own level, good luck trying to do this without help! Sure, a Priest/GS can realistically do this now, thanks to Shine Knights, but one specific class combo being able to do something doesn't automatically absolve the issue. That's like saying, as an example, that an idea for a new miniboss type who absorbs every damage type is acceptable because Nihilists exist, when that miniboss can appear in the tutorial battle.
- Next, is the FP upkeep. Early on, you absolutely need Cracked Mirror to sustain a single youkai, as your max FP is so low. Factor in what I said above about affinities, and it's actually closer to level 11 before you can actually reliably keep a single youkai going. As a youkai levels up and becomes less useless, it's cost also increases. This is infuriating for a number of reasons. Does a mage suddenly need more FP to cast Fir just because they levelled up? No, they can leave Fir at rank 1 and it still does respectable damage because it scales with their Will! But a low level youkai is completely useless. While a GS can keep 3 level 1 youkai out to help level small groups up a little faster, by the time they're closer to level 30 (still too low to be of much help against level 50+ mobs) a single Youkai will cost 11 FP per turn, making it 33 (18 per turn after the FP regen, in addition to anything the summoner needs to do, like Reihou to revive the youkai) to keep those same 3 youkai out. This is complete and utter murder for BDPs, as this is over several turns (As a youkai only moves the turn AFTER it is summoned, and nemies will ALWAYS try to run for you rather than the Youkai, meaning that you'll be taking needless damage as you wait for them to either start moving if summoned in melee range, or catch up to the enemy if summoned at a distance) and several battles, as opposed to being able to wrap things up far sooner (for less total FP spent) or for lower costs with other classes (for a comparable number of turns). And I'll even give evoke scaling it's own point below!
Yes. I get why this is needed for PVP. But other games have varying mechanics for PVE and PVP, why can't we? I don't think a class should be such a PVE horror to level as, just to balance PVP. I've addressed this below in my proposed change to suggesting ways to keep PVP the same while easing off on PVE
"Just use food! The tutorial gives you like three loaves of bread, anyways, and cherry pie is only 20 mura!" Yeah, brilliant, those loaves of bread are a whole 5%, so 5% of 30 FP is... uhhh.... 1 FP per battle. And your character gets hungry faster than you can afford those cherry pies, off the 1 mura per fight from the top floor of the Jammer Cave. Even later on, unless you're a lich with Evoker as a main class to maximize FP gains, a store bought 20% FP heal could very well not amount to much compared to the costs involved with playing a summoner. And it gets worse if you're not levelling as some kind of caster, since Summoner actually lends itself well to any theme, so Melee/Summoner is viable, just with far less FP for food to work it's magic with.
Also, "Just install Wawa, duh!" Yeah, half of Wawa's level, with a Luck+Level based chance. So let's say my Wawa is level 8, and I have 4 luck. That's a 12% chance to drain 4 FP. That's not even worth the install cost. Yes, Wawa Install is absolutely amazing once you level Wawa up. But good luck doing that as a brand new character who didn't just grind Wawa up from level 60!
- Youkai skill power and costs. Again, the scaling is bull. I'd rather keep Stat + 10 or so for 15 FP compared to Stat + 60 for closer to 70 FP. Furthermore, this hurts the Youkai as well, due to skills like Energy Transfer and Spirit Regeneration covering a base amount of FP that never scales up with the scaling of the skills. It gets even dumber when you consider that some youkai skills can be evoked from a level 1 youkai for no penalty (Such as Seeker Flame, as it is based off the level of the user, not the Youkai) while the cost increases with the youkai's level for absolutely zero benefit. The only solution? Do not level the youkai up. Meaning it can never be summoned again once the evoke hits that amount you want to spend on the skill.
"But if the costs are lowered, they'll be way too strong!" My suggestions involve rebalancing power vs cost. They won't get their full +60 anymore. I admit that damage could get a little ridiculous sometimes, even outdamaging the strongest possible weapons in the game used with non-cheesed skills. It's little wonder Youkai are considered overpowered! By rebalancing the power vs costs for PVE, I think they'd be more balanced in PVP, too! See my suggestions below!
- The friendship system sounds like an interesting idea on paper. But the Youkai start off rebellious at the base level. This makes early game summoners even more hellish than ever before. Trying to level a youkai will result in it unsummoning itself, and trying to install to save your life (elemental absorb, etc) will result in them refusing. I also think an Evoke failed one time, but that could have been lag and it not appearing in the log, as the other occurrences had messages. And if you're a low level, how reliably do you think you can find youkai gifts? I'm not saying the friendship system is bad. It just needs a few minor adjustments to make new lowbie summoners not an infuriating experience.
I've not spoken to anyone about this yet, so I do not know common arguments in favor of this. I can definitly imagine, but I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, so I'll refrain from making assumptions. Still, as this is a new system, I suspect it's under some evaluation, like when Battle Weight was new. Like I said, from a base concept, I like the system. It's just too punishing at lower levels.
SO WHAT DO I PROPOSE WE DO ABOUT EACH OF THESE POINTS I'VE LISTED?
Affinity and levelling:
- Add additional benefits to Affinity in exchange for removing the growth boost. Raise the base growths by 10% instead of Affinity's current 15% to compensate. For example, new affinity benefits could include improved loyalty/ easier friendship gains with that particular family of youkai or/and a charisma-like bonus that boosts Youkai stats further if within x many spaces of their summoner. This would let a summoner use a new Youkai immediately at the start of the game (Or rather, once Cracked Mirror has enough levels in it) without perma-gimping them if they don't wait until affinity is maxed, while adding very real reasons to actually WANT to raise affinity rather than simple obligation.
- Add some way of catching lower level youkai up faster. Perhaps giving them improved exp scaling based on how low their level is compared to yours, up to a maximum level of 2/3 as their highest possible boosted experience level If they still only level up once per fight, this will change absolutely nothing at high levels, while allowing lower/medium levels to realistically get Youkai to a state where they're not useless. (Level 30 player, level 1 youkai? Level 20 in 20 battles, so they can start catching up a bit faster, as opposed to taking so long to hit 20 that you're already 40. Meanwhile, a level 60 summoner's Youkai are already level 40 in 40 battles, so this changes nothing for higher level players)
Upkeep FP cost scaling:
Option A: Only apply the scaling to PVP, or maybe make PVE only half-scaled.
Option B: Add a skill to regen some FP (say 10% or 20, whichever is higher) after every battle (Would only affect PVE)
Option C: Something akin to a Dullahan's Soul Generator, where unused M is converted into FP. Encourage pacifist pure summoners as opposed to the stereotype of "LOL SUMMON AND THEN GO ALL OUT WITH MY OTHER CLASS, TOO!" This change WOULD affect PVP, but I personally feel it is balanced, as it would basically let you sustain another youkai by DOING NOTHING, YOURSELF.
Youkai skill scaling
- Instead of Youkai Level PLUS stat (for likely an approximate 120 damage before weaknesses/resistances/defenses) make it Youkai Level OR stat, + A static bonus, just like normal skills, with a slightly larger bonus to account for the lack of weapon scaling (As opposed to a tome's magic boost, or a weapon's power) To compensate for this large drop in power, make the FP costs far more reasonable, more in-line with comparable spells. This will make PVE summoning more sustainable, while giving PVP summoners a balance between a nerf (Much lower output) but at least more sustainability (A healer can't just manage to endure a few rounds and then fight back once the Youkai are drained)
Examples:
- Fairy Lance: Same scaling, bonus and cost as R5 Holy Arrow. Line length can be adjusted. Longer shot costs more FP.
- Parraeta: Asrai Level without bonus, 1:1 drain ratio (As opposed to Asrai Level x 2, and a 1/2 drain.) Costs a flat 25 FP.
- Hunter Wind: Will/2 + Seiiryu Level /2 with no bonus, but causes Lv 15 Hunted regardless of Youkai level. Costs a flat 25 FP.
- Thunder Claw: Str without bonus, if used on a feared opponent, causes Lv 10 hesitation for 2 rounds, costs a flat 25 FP.
- Whirlpool: User's level without bonus. Can be adjusted. Base cost is 10, with an extra 10 FP cost per adjusted range (3-6 range; max range costs 40)
- Seeker Flame: User's Level without bonus. Costs a flat 10 FP.
You get the idea. Much weaker youkai skills, but FP costs that are long term sustainable.
Friendship system
Option A: Start the base happiness level higher, so they're not rebellious little shits right out of the gate. Sure, you haven't earned their trust yet, but a contract is a contract, and you don't just go "fuck this, I'm out" if you have a contract. Why are they giving you a hard time if you haven't gotten them badly hurt yet?
Option B: Allow Affinity Skills to raise loyalty/ happiness, so you can at least prioritize one youkai who will listen early on.
Thank you for reading my wall of text. I'm hopeful for reasonable discussion.
*loud burp*
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