[Egil]

tl;dr I think that buffing Boss monsters to make them more interesting/fun to fight and increasing their drops slightly would make hunting them down a more enjoyable experience.

My idea of how it would go down: Boss monsters get 9 momentum in exchange for a 1.5x increase in the drop rate for their 10*s.

[Sarinpa1]

i hope you enjoy the backattack

[Trexmaster]

Giving them all Accel would be a start, but, some bosses are just beyond redemption in their current state, some are okay-ish, and some just clearly outclass the other bosses.

For fun, I'll list all of them and detail why they suck, and throw an idea as to how to make them not suck/say why they're fine right now. Of course I totally expect you (Dev) to come up with something else/already have an idea as to how to make them better.

I will make one blanket suggestion beforehand, though: A lot of the issues bosses have is the fact the AI generally tells them to move forward and basic attack every round, or just basic attack--or just move forward and do nothing if they're not in range for their basic attack (even if they could use something like Black Hole). Afterwards, nearly every boss is at the mercy of the players, and, generally, they dont live more than 2-3 rounds. The most simple solutions I can offer for this are giving certain bosses Riposte, and offering flat DRs to more of the bosses to increase their survivability if the AI remains as it is (see: braindead).

Jammer Omega- It's just a wall of hp with Rampage and Focus. I cannot recall its stats off the top of my head, but, if I recall it gets rather poor LUC and only passable SKI, meaning it will frequently miss anyone with decent dodge, causing it to never use Rampage, and quickly turn useless with the one or two turns it has to live.

Suggestion: Give it Divide. Seriously, just that would make things interesting. Same way to counter it as any other Jammer, too, and the mass Rampage may cause issues if it spawns too many (which is good).

Goblin Giant - Same issue as the Jammer Omega, same deets as the Jammer Omega beyond it getting a noticeably higher amount of SKI, so it tends to be able to hit sometimes even on average dodge targets. Of course, it gets a massive Fire weakness, so, it tends to get murdered even faster if this is abused.

Suggestion: Give it something like Board Shaker (circle AoE earth damage). Otherwise I dont really have any ideas for 'em.

Lava Slime - Its stats are abysmal across the board last I remember. It lacks the SKI/LUC to hit most people, and its only offensive abilities, as usual, are Rampage and its basic attack, but, it has its repetoire of passive retaliation abilities...which sadly tend not to do much to anyone but melee attackers. Which is fine, but, this tends to make the boss powerless against nearly everyone else.

Suggestion: Give it permanent Channel Destruction and Fire Breath. Something like that. Either that or like, a map-wide fire attack of some sort. Create even more cinder tiles (that actually deal decent damage). Or even just make its tiles it leaves last longer or even permanent.

Fangs - It has fairly good SKI last I recall, but poor LUC--though its bonus to hit with Maul gives it about the same odds of hitting as the Goblin Giant. Its issue, though, is that bar the standard Rampage/Focus, it's literally a Sand Shark. Given the popularity and power of Earth damage, he tends to just die before he does anything whatsoever.

Suggestion: Remove its Earth weakness either completely, or just when it doesn't have the Dive status.

Bandit Boss - I cannot recall its stat lineup, but, I never recall it ever hitting my 200~ dodge character, so. Overall its an underwhelming boss, and its most potent ability is Headcracker. Unlike a lot of the bosses, it lacks any crowd control (see: Rampage) bar its traps that will almost never be tripped. The only plus it has is it always spawns with a good number of bandits.

Suggestion: Give it Tactician skills, like Assault Order and Enemy Evaluation. I mean, it drops the Vorso, so, it'd make sense. Even alone if it happens to have the brains to use them in proper order (see: not going Assault Order > Headcracker) it can be a bit tougher.

Alraune - Now we're starting to see the bosses that actually require a modicum of thought. Alraune has subpar stats to my knowledge, but, I don't recall her lineup off the top of my head. The key factor to Alraune is Alluring Beauty, which makes so you -never- want to end a round next to her, though this generally ends up making people kite her with Skip every round so she never -can- end her rounds near them, making this skill useless to anyone who can avoid it.

Suggestion: Give Alraune Wild Grass. Or something like it. An Immoblize skill on her would make it somewhat more possible for her to get the 1-range round ends ever. Embrace would also be fitting. The mobs that spawn with her could afford a rework to do the Immoblize task instead, too. (i.e. new mobs). Silence would also make escaping more difficult (and, hey, not a single mob in PvE inflicts silence.)

Spectre Knight I lied. Because I forgot to add him earlier. Spectre Knight is a joke of a boss who is only topped by Gigas Rex in how bad he is. His SKI/LUC is abysmal if I recall, only rarely ever hitting people. As of late it seems like he's forgotten he has Hellspike, and just opts to walk up people and wail on them/flail mindlessly until he dies. The small group he spawns with helps a bit, but, generally they're dealt with easily as he has no way to support them at all.

Suggestion: Give him Fleeing Spectres and better SKI/LUC so he can actually hit/inflict. The former is important as he has Fallcall...but no way to inflict Fear. The only things in his fight that can fear you? Styx Shout. When do Spectres use it? If they have multiple targets in range. This makes ever seeing him get a Fear on anyone and using it incredibly rare if it's not planned by the players fighting him. Not to mention he seems unable to make use of Hellspike > Calling. If Hellspike inflicted Fear (only for the actual boss please, and using the infliction formula, too) then it could make him much more dangerous, if giving him magic ain't gonna work.

Gigas Rex Last terrible boss, I swear. Gigas Rex is the absolute biggest joke in the entire game, Jammers are more lethal than him (because they have Divide and Accel). All he gets is an Earth damage Rampage, and Focus. That's it. His SKI/LUC isn't all that great, even though he -used- to have over 100 STR before the caps happened. Additionally, he has rather low HP for a boss. The only boon he gets ever is...two of him spawn in a Crazy. Which is great for farming him but it's just more fodder for the meat grinder.

Suggestion: I dont even know where to start with him. A total rework would be in order. Like, what's the concept of the boss here? Before when his strength was the highest in the game, yeah, I could see the gimmick there. If he ever hits you it'll hurt, a lot. So if you're aiming to keep with that (and it does fit considering his boss drop), raise the power of Extinction Fang, give it something akin to Terra Strike (earth AoE that inflicts Magentized, so it can deal damage to dodgers and make an attempt to be able to hit them ever) or even give it skills that can inflict Knockdown (a particuarlly mean combo I'm thinking is giving it Run Down -and- that, so it'd use the KD skill first then Run Down a KD'd person. Odds are it'd almost never miss.)

Shadow Guardian I'm torn on if this boss is Ravager tier or not, but, it's definitely above all the other bosses. Its stats are a mystery due to Record Erasure, but, unlike every other boss, it doesnt start moving in until its second phase. The issue is, it doesnt move until its second phase. Hell, if no enemies are in its skill range, and it already used Summon Unkindess, it'll just end its turn. Demon Translation and its many abilities make it a tough fight if you can't just insta-gib it, so, it's not a total pushover.

Suggestion: Give it something akin to Healing Discharge or Malmelo so it doesn't waste its turns for one. Other than that, I dont know what else to suggest, it's already in a pretty good spot other than the aforementioned issues.

Spatial Ravager - The undisputed most powerful boss in the game, mainly due to the fact it was the only one that was overhauled. Its only flaw is the same that all other bosses share, in that it will generally just move > stand there if nothing is in range, or move > basic/skill. Its passive light damage to all enemies on top of its heavy damaging skills make it an actual fight.

Suggestion: Don't do anything to it. It's fine where it is. The most I'd suggest giving it is some DR to make it not die as fast, but, considering its damage potential, making it tanky will just -require- bum rushing it down to ever kill it. The only buff I'd give it is Accel. Nothing more.

In conclusion, yeah, I'd love to see tougher bosses and even considered tossing up suggestions for new bosses in light of the 10* updates. It's just that fixing them isn't going to be simple.

[Exxy]

I wouldn't buff existing bosses, I would rather add new ones that are stronger- there's no point in buffing bosses for a character that's already well into their 'end game' persay just to have newer characters or even new players [strike](yes, new players are a thing and are not mythical unicorns)[/strike] that haven't got a good foothold yet struggle too much.

That being said, I would -love- to see stronger bosses and not specifically locked into the "Main Story" either... maybe even some that are literally designed to be past unforgiving.

A quick idea of implementation: you get down to the core of a dungeon... have full-cleared it up until the very end. You have a core in your inventory that you haven't spent [strike]because all core drops are trash anyway[/strike] and decided to activate it near the dungeon's core. Then a buffed version of said boss or new one takes the place of the dungeon's regular boss and, of course, their minions appear to greet you.

Edit: No offense but. . . God no, PLEASE no. I think it's pretty safe to write Accel off as a failure and put it on the shelf. It was a good idea that went down horribly from what I remember.

[MegaBlues]

If boss monsters are buffed, I think they should be optional plus bosses. Don't forget to leave the game accessible to those who don't have the perfect setup.

[Trexmaster]

Exxy » Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:19 pm[/url]"]I wouldn't buff existing bosses, I would rather add new ones that are stronger- there's no point in buffing bosses for a character that's already well into their 'end game' persay just to have newer characters or even new players [strike](yes, new players are a thing and are not mythical unicorns)[/strike] that haven't got a good foothold yet struggle too much.

That being said, I would -love- to see stronger bosses and not specifically locked into the "Main Story" either... maybe even some that are literally designed to be past unforgiving.

A quick idea of implementation: you get down to the core of a dungeon... have full-cleared it up until the very end. You have a core in your inventory that you haven't spent [strike]because all core drops are trash anyway[/strike] and decided to activate it near the dungeon's core. Then a buffed version of said boss or new one takes the place of the dungeon's regular boss and, of course, their minions appear to greet you.

Edit: No offense but. . . God no, PLEASE no. I think it's pretty safe to write Accel off as a failure and put it on the shelf. It was a good idea that went down horribly from what I remember.

Your first point is part of why I wanted there to just be tougher bosses that were unique instead. The simpler option is to just make the bosses tougher with level (i.e. give them the better skills as they gain levels, like them only getting super tough at 61+ or something).

I'm all for strong bosses, too, but, I dont want bosses that are just trial and error to such a degree that you instantly die if you're not familiar with the boss, but are cakewalks once you do.

As to your last point, I didn't mean the dungeon prefix, I meant the monster skill Accel, both Jammers and Vorpal Rabbits currently get it.

and chaos loves giving it to mobs he uses

It raises a monster's momentum by 3. To 9. Like the OP suggested.

Making the bosses get tougher in the manners I suggested as they level instead of just being straight up stronger ala Spatial Ravager overhaul would alleviate (in my mind) the issue that newer players would be punished. They can get used to the lower level versions of the boss before challenging the stronger version(s).

[Ranylyn]

As someone who solos 90% of the time purely since players love to disable sound effects and tab out so they don't know it's their own turn yet and always seem to check back after it's expired (ASDFGHJKL STOP DOING THIS, PEOPLE, stop wasting my time with your impatience, my turns almost always take under 10 seconds since I plan my move out in advance, unless you happen to screw my plan up, yourself, so just wait for 1/6 of a single minute instead of making ME wait SEVERAL!) I've got to say, Trex's proposed changes for some bosses is downright horrifying. Here's why:

General: Most people tend to PVE as Evokers/Hexers. CM Sears + Boss staying in the area = making a joke of absolutely anything that doesn't resist fire, AND they don't need to get as close. Rampage is generally the biggest threat they need to face, and bosses die too fast against them for it to be much of an issue. But most other classes? Gunners generally have low HP and can't reliably kite due to skills like Skilled Hunter and of course Rampage, for example. And melee classes... just... melee classes. Yes, melee classes alone are single handedly one very good reason why most of these changes should not be implemented. And a friendly reminder that you only get one shot at the core battle, even if you make your way back, so working towards a full clear for literally HOURS only to end up at one of these bosses... I mean, just....

Omega Jammers may not have the most amazing Hit ever, if you're a perfect Cel dodger, sure, but they do seem to have decent crit chance. I've had BKs with R5 Negation get overwhelmed just from it's dual crits every round (because Kiting isn't an option or it'll just Rampage.) Letting it DIVIDE AND SURROUND YOU FOR 4X THE CRITS... I mean really. This one kind of speaks for itself. I know, I know, "Rany, stfu about your bad luck." But my point is strong: If they can crit BKs, that means they'd most likely have at least 51% crit against other classes. Ergo, suicide to give them divide.

Goblin Giant's proposed change is honestly okay by me. It doesn't change the dynamic too much unless it's getting surrounded, and Board Shaker uses a lot of FP, so it can only spam it so long.

Lava Slime: If this idea is added, remove it's guaranteed heavy fire damage that bypasses immunity/absorb melee counter. The two combined is just way too much. A melee class would need to trudge through these tiles just to approach and take more damage on the attack. "Oh, but Rany, just use a mercury and autohits!" Right, because the only Lava Slimes are 60+ and every character ever would have both the time to get specific footwear just for this fight AND enough FP to spam Autohits to not die?

Fangs, Spectre Knight, Alraune's proposed changes are all fine. Even if Alraune's could potentially make it absolute suicide to ever use non skip+repel melee against her, at least it's thematic and counterable by most classes in one way or another (Bash, Gust Trap, Repel, Peddling Wheel, etc.)

Bandit Boss getting orders could potentially be the most OP terrifying PVE thing in the game. Unless you're an Evoker/Hexer in which case HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, literally nothing threatens you in PVE. Bandit bosses spawn with a lot of minions. Giving them ALL a minimum +25 damage each round, potentially more if the bandit offhands a tome? Any non-dodge melee would just automatically die, end of story. "Duuuuur, not me, I have 1000 HP, so like 8 of them attacking me would take a few turns to wear me down!" Well good for you, you're the elite group who've LE'd dozens of times and have some pretty great rare enchants, but that doesn't mean everyone is you.

Gigas Rex's suggestions, I'm totally on board with. It really is kind of a joke. I had a level 5 summoner beat a level 14 gigas rex once just by repeatedly dropping a seeker flame in front of it, and then attacking with a tome. Resist. No M to move. And it was attacking so no Rexquake. I mean really. it needs something else.

Shadow Guardian: I'd like to point out one big flaw in the proposed suggestion: It's exploitable as hell. Just hang back outside of it's range and drain all it's FP before you really fight. (Which would basically be mandatory if it knows Malmelo once you factor in Demon Translation's damage reduction.)


I don't think the changes are inherenly bad or anything, but they really do seem like "yo, nothing threatens evoker/hexer, let's make it more interesting for them and screw the rest." There are some good ideas, but sometimes incredibly imbalanced.


TLDR version: Jus read megablues' post.

[Exxy]

Trexmaster » Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:05 pm[/url]"]

Your first point is part of why I wanted there to just be tougher bosses that were unique instead. The simpler option is to just make the bosses tougher with level (i.e. give them the better skills as they gain levels, like them only getting super tough at 61+ or something).

I'm all for strong bosses, too, but, I dont want bosses that are just trial and error to such a degree that you instantly die if you're not familiar with the boss, but are cakewalks once you do.

As to your last point, I didn't mean the dungeon prefix, I meant the monster skill Accel, both Jammers and Vorpal Rabbits currently get it.

and chaos loves giving it to mobs he uses

It raises a monster's momentum by 3. To 9. Like the OP suggested.

Making the bosses get tougher in the manners I suggested as they level instead of just being straight up stronger ala Spatial Ravager overhaul would alleviate (in my mind) the issue that newer players would be punished. They can get used to the lower level versions of the boss before challenging the stronger version(s).

Oh- my bad. For some reason whenever I hear/see Accel I automatically think of that which shan't be named, even in situations where it doesn't seem 100% to assume so [strike](blaming it on lack of sleep as per usual, especially considering I posted right after I got off work and then passed out afterward)[/strike]. . . but yeah, I'd be cool with them having Accel.

You're right, he's a bit giddy when it comes to that.

Overall I'd definitely be a fan for either of the following:

-New bosses that are their own entity or heavily revamped varieties of the existing ones (and to respond to Ran's comment on the instance I gave, it doesn't have to be Full Cleared- it was just an example I thought of at the time).
-The difficulty spiking for bosses drastically upon hitting a level marker at or above above 60 (61, 65, 70) and then adhering to their existing level-ups until the next marker.


Post-Thought: I'd also be interested in seeing demi-bosses (like halfway-bosses placed throughout the dungeon, not demi-god bosses. . . I forget the actual wording for them).

[Snake]

-The difficulty spiking for bosses drastically upon hitting a level marker at or above above 60 (60, 65, 70)

[strike]What? How kind. I'd say from 55. More difficult bosses might be a good challenge for people who capped and like PvE.[/strike]


| : Gotcha.
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[Exxy]

Snake » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:58 pm[/url]"]

-The difficulty spiking for bosses drastically upon hitting a level marker at or above above 60 (60, 65, 70)

What? How kind. I'd say from 55. More difficult bosses might be a good challenge for people who capped and like PvE.

It goes back to my first point about not wanting to see it step-on-toes for lower levels or those who haven't hit Level Cap. Clearly you'll hunt for the higher dungeons if you're more-than capable of dealing with them or don't know better yet.

I also edited that part of the post to be 61 instead of 60 to start outside of the level cap for players. *shrugs*