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Lolzytripd · 08-28-2017, 05:23 PM

Before you even start comparing fp costs, you need to look at oppurtunity costs of autohit vs Hit check builds

hit builds need a damage stat, usually strength

the hit stat skill tax to hit things

the crit stats guile and luck tax to even do damage comparable to autohits.

Auto hits need

Damage stat, they then can full invest in defensive ways to screw over hit check guy

this ends up with them being tankier, more fp, more hp, more crit defense (LOLOLOL FAITH)

Sawrock · 08-28-2017, 09:48 PM

Lolzy is 100% right. Basic attacks need luck and skill to hit, and a damage stat (usually strength). Automotive builds only need the damage stat. Sorry to repeat what they said, but that was a well-thought point, Lolzy.

Lolzytripd · 08-28-2017, 11:01 PM

I have to make sense some times....

Rendar · 09-04-2017, 12:11 PM

Okay, so with the person I fought consenting and giving some stats to help 'showcase' the issue between Autohits vs Basic attacks. Here are our stats side-by-side.

Gear

First, let's break down the stats/gear

Dualwielding Daggerfans for damage (107 SWA)
Armor of Eyes for +HIT & buttstab protection
Ogata Waraji for +2 CEL and 10% Phys DR
Cat Mask for +2 CEL/LUC & Steal
Lucky Pendant for +3 LUC & buttstab protection

vs

Battlepick (166 SWA)
Turtle Shell (Phys DR Errywhere) (Bleached Fang)
Dragon Gloves
Spiked Treads (Assburn protection)
Knight Ring for dat 2h BABYYYY
Dragon Helm

Now, already the 'difference' is becoming apparent. I'm building +stat items so I can actually dodge and shit, and the Ogata is decent DR.

They're just building pure offense, with a sprinkling of defense, so that they deal absurd damage and also are absurdly tanky.

Stats

As you can very much already tell. Their weapon is 100% STR scaling. Mine is 40% SKI/LUC/CEL.

They have 166 SWA, I have 107, they have quite a bit more due to the DragonKing set existing and 2h.
However, due to the way stats work, I have 50%~ crit chance at their back with a max Northern Wind with them only investing in one stat, while I had to invest into two and get half of the reward from it.

144 crit vs 88~ crit evade (mercala op)

Combat Log

Now, let's break down the battle.

T1
First turn goes to me, so I buff and move adjacent
They move (instead of double tapping, or quadra tapping my ass) and round trip.
T2
I move adjacent, stab.
I get hit hard, then flung away and knocked down.
T3
I stand up, and am now unable to attack this turn. So I move closer.
They quadra tap me for huge amounts of damage, then fling me away.
T4
I move adjacent (again), stab.
They madchop + roundtrip me (they could have just smacked me and flung me away + KD again)
T5
I move behind them, get two crits on my dagger dance and can attack again!!! My highest DPS so far!!!
They just kill me because I have 19 HP left. I'd be dead before now if not for bullshit Healing glyph placement.

Obviously, this isn't completely okay. My DPS spikes (but only the DPS on one target, and I don't get added effects) when I get crits. However, their damage is consistently high, with only 1 offensive stat and tons of defensive stats to protect against basic attacks. Their damage ALSO increases if they get enemies in range of some of their Auto-hits since some of them are AoEs.

Lolzytripd · 09-04-2017, 07:40 PM

and before someone says use dark water tiles to get crit up, board shaker and I'm pretty sure theres something that halves dark waters effectiveness but it's name eludes me.

PantherPrincess · 09-04-2017, 08:56 PM

I would really like Dev to maybe question if it should have been the way it was due to the fact now all basic attackers hit like sheets of paper. 70 damage on a crit doesnt really sound like the ideal damage for investing in str, skill, luc, and guile. Or at least come up with a new formula because the damage right now is ridiculous it's not even worth playing anymore.

Lolzytripd · 09-05-2017, 01:36 AM

Guile as a stat sounds nice on paper but in reality it wrecked basic attacking.

Unless your weapon scales hard on guile (daggggggggggggggggggggggggerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrsssssssssssss) building for crit damage hurt builds.

It took away the flat 2x crit damage (2.5x for void assassins) and made it 1.05(fist)-1.25(axe/daggers)+scaled guile crit damage which is nowhere near old crit damage.

meanwhile tanky auto hitters lost nothing, they got sanctity as an optional new tank stat, a stat that its inclusion didn't steal from any mechanics.

With GR choosing your stats they could even have faith now.

Autumn · 09-05-2017, 02:02 AM

"Lolzytripd" Wrote:and before someone says use dark water tiles to get crit up, board shaker and I'm pretty sure theres something that halves dark waters effectiveness but it's name eludes me.

Sanctified soles, and board shaker doesn't destroy tiles.

Quote:Guile as a stat sounds nice on paper but in reality it wrecked basic attacking.

This is because of Strength's lack of draw or appeal as a stat as a whole, and not because GUI has any drawbacks, GUI is really strong and it feels rewarding to build for.

Quote:It took away the flat 2x crit damage (2.5x for void assassins) and made it 1.05(fist)-1.25(axe/daggers)+scaled guile crit damage which is nowhere near old crit damage.

Before GR, Critical damage was 1.5x, and 2x for daggers, in the current system GUI can surpass this quite easily.

Quote:meanwhile tanky auto hitters lost nothing, they got sanctity as an optional new tank stat, a stat that its inclusion didn't steal from any mechanics.

Here's a comment that could use more clarity on, to make clear exactly what autohit builds got.

1.) Optional stat system, while before you couldn't exactly choose your stats, if you wanted to autohit things to death you were shoehorned into one of the higher STR giving growths in the game, demon hunter or Arbalest as your main class, this allowed you to have bruiser stats but never full tank stats.

2.) Again with the optional stat system, in the old system you'd never have enough FP to keep autohitting up forever, in the current system you can just pick and choose how much FP you have, so much so that you won't have to care about FP Costs in general at some point, this'd require a sort of FP tuning, not a tuning on how much damage autohits do.

3.) Largely scaling weapons with little hit investment, weapons such as Brawler's Glove (115% STR) with access to Rebelling that'd give them 30+ power and still 30+ power these days, called for weapons hitting ludicrous amounts of SWP, upwards to 150-180 I've seen when abused with the two-hand talent.

Quote:With GR choosing your stats they could even have faith now.

Faith is still just as balanced as it almost always has been, Lolzy.
----

All in all, this topic should of died a while ago, The best bet is to not rely on an unintended fix to basic attacks, and instead give the power bonus to Guns only, then think about something for STR for the rest of the weapon pool

Lolzytripd · 09-05-2017, 06:59 AM

What I meant was that pre gr faith growths were bad, horribad, now you can have 40+faith no problemo.

and you are right about crit, guess rose tinted glasses of pre gr had me hallucinating on somethings.

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