[Ryu-Kazuki]

Guns right now, in general are very, extremely lackluster. Their damage output for certain weapon types is pitiful and they can easily be outmatched by other ranged weapons. Especially another provided by an Arbalest.



This is my first attempt at a Magic Gunner, this is prior to her first Legend Extension, but in combat despite her versatility, her offensive capabilities are extremely poor.

Deathrose Sniper

Worth: 150
Medium Gun

Power: 17
Type: Rifle

Critical: 32%
Accuracy: 83%

Rounds: 1

Material: Rockdirt
Weight: 20

Damage Type: Pierce
Durability: 14/43


Rarity:

The Excel line of weapons were developed in Chaturanga, where the ability to be defensive while increasing offensive capabilities was highly valued. By charging up the weapon, it can explosively spend the focus energy when it strikes an enemy, greatly increasing damage. However, the engine module makes it heavier than other weapons.

Item Effects
Quality - Lightweight -2 Weight
Grants Skill: Charge Weapon
On Hit: Consumes Weapon Charges, dealing 50% more damage per Charge Level.

Customization
Barrel Slot - Sniper Barrel
Grip Slot - Custom Grip
Bullets Slot - Silver Bullets

This is the weapon she uses, which is the preferred weapon I plan on using for her. But overall, multi-shot guns provide better damage output unless I use my weapon's excel ability, which is at a cost of 3M per. (It'd be one free if I had a shock collar and conversion gloves, but I don't.)

I'm not sure how the proper SKI scaling for guns works, but I was told it's SKI/2 + WIL/4 + Power for Magic Gunners. So taking the character's stats into account...

Currently that's...

17 + (43/2 rounded down) + (17/4 rounded down) = 52. On a crit is 78. That's all without an excel charge. At 60 if I got both an extra 18 SKI and 18 WIL. ((SKI / 2 = 9) + (WIL / 4 = 4) = 13 + 52) = 65. 65 damage per shot with a sniper rifle. Which is 65 + (65*1.5) = 97 on a crit. Any other weapon can do more damage than that. This is also not guaranteed because of my growth percentages.

With an excel charge comes out to 78 + (78/2) = 117 damage. Which is free with a shock collar and conversion gloves (minus the 2 HP cost for shock collar).

If I wanted a full 150% excel charge without a shock collar and conversion gloves, that costs me a total of 1 1/2 turns with Tactician. A full 1 turn with those items. And that'd total out to... 78 + (78 * 1.5) = 195 without a crit, and with a crit would be... 195 * 1.5 = 292.5. Setting that up still costs (2 full turns) more time than CM + Non-Invoke Spell casting (which is 1 1/2 turns). Doing so makes you miss out on chances to do High Charge (which comes free if you use Spark Drive), or Overcharge (which also comes free if you use Thunder Drive, but all of that costs you 4 SP plus 2 SP for Safety in order to set that up, making you lose 6 SP just for that build).

Now, this is all considering just a sniper, which can be boosted by excel powers. Other guns don't get that kind of benefit so they can't even reach that high of damage. Even so, 52 base damage (which can get somewhat higher yes because I'm not at 60) is really pathetic, especially even for a single shot rifle.

Now you can argue that guns are already good, but let's look at the pros and cons overall before saying that.

Pros

• Guns bypass defense.
  
• Guns can get multiple hits.
  
• Guns get marksmanship bonuses.
  
• Guns do extra damage against Kaelensia & Beast Races (if you equip Silver Bullets).
  
• Snipers have good range against short movement characters.
  
• Swapping shells has no penalty.

Cons

• Guns can't be upgraded at a blacksmith.
  
• Guns can't be crafted, meaning they're stuck at one positive quality if you find them in a dungeon.
  
• Guns are a pain to find in dungeons. They also may not be the material type you wanted, nor have a positive quality. They may not even be the gun you wanted to use.
  
• Guns vary on shot quantity, and depending on the type of gun is the type of mod / skills you can use to make it better.
  
• Guns get a variety of shells, but they take up skill slots, cost a pretty SP cost for multiple shells, and not every shell works for every gun.
  
• Guns get practically no synergy from their base class.
  
• Safety is required to make Thunder Drive work (since if you fire again to make Thunder Drive activate, you need to make sure you don't burn out your charge, costing you at least 1 SP, plus the SP you spent on Spark Drive and Overcharge and their prerequisites.).
  
• Reloading makes all effects of shells not work for 4 turns (2 if you have Cooldown, which again costs 3 SP).

Either way you look at it, guns have decent arguments on both sides. But I still feel that if you need to spend so much so set something up, or even to provide good damage (especially with a gun that doesn't split the damage between shots), then you make yourself a sitting duck and an easy target to pick off.

If it is at 1/2 SKI divided between each shot, then that needs to be changed in some manner, because 25% of WIL isn't going to cut much at all in helping the damage increase. I think the 25% of WIL is fine, so it doesn't need to change, because it's not going to help other future gun classes.

Though I propose SKI scaling with guns increases to 75% of SKI / shot quantity. This way it's not entirely too high, but still provides a decent increase to the desire for guns and their combat power. Otherwise they're going to be dishing out small hits with moderate HP for a gunner, and you're not getting much DEF either, so you're all around pretty weak in combat. There's too much cost currently for so little reward.

[Lolzytripd]

how about sniper getting 75% skill scaling specifically, as shotguns are ecent due to class bonuses.

[Rendar]

The Excel Rifle is the only single shot rifle, and lo and behold its an excel series. Wherein it does get lots of damage with a.. 9-13 square range on it if you play a certain class that gives you increased crit. Rifles getting 75% SKI scaling is kind of out of the question. Hell, just earlier with testing with Lolzy for.. 6 momentum, he nearly 1 shot me with an overcharge. < See Shotgun + Blaze Shell >. Did about.. 280 of my 290 health on a non-crit.

Critical Hit! The Winter Soldier attacks Tiny Fawn Girl with Coral Shotgun and hits them!
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 130 Pierce damage.
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 125 Ice damage.
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 15 Ice damage.
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 8 Water damage.

Perona Renega attacks Tiny Fawn Girl with Lord of the boomsticks and hits them!
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 73 Fire damage.
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 126 Fire damage.
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 12 Fire damage.
Tiny Fawn Girl takes 9 Wind damage.

2 different characters, mind you. And if the first person had used hellhound shells like Lolzy did, I would have instantly died. I'm not saying that MGs are 100% balanced, but they sure as hell don't need a damage buff.

Considering the extra damage the overcharge gives, alongside the effects of either, it creates a large deficit for 'balance'.

"Do we need to give it more damage, or other effects?" and the answer, simply, is "Not really".

Ryu, you're comparing an MGs damage to an Arbalests. The Arbalest is MEANT to punch holes through people. It's supposed to hurt like hell, that's its job. MG is the annoying cousin of Arbalest, in that it can nullify stat benefits, deal quite a bit of damage, cause mass hesitation, cause AoE damage and the like.

Honestly? What MG kind of needs is better synergy with its base class. That is the only thing keeping it slightly down right now. So, if that gets synergized, then the class might be more balanced, or outright broken. From there we can do more to it.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

The rifle only gets 8 range at max with a Sniper Barrel and Marksmanship. Anyone with Preparation, Shoes of Swiftness, Shukuchi, etc and easily invalidate that range.

Not everyone uses Blaze Shell. I don't see why one certain skill always has to be a providing argument for a "no this doesn't need to be buffed". Most of this is actually just talking about the gun in general, because if another gun based promotion came out, none of these skills would matter if the Magic Gunner class wasn't used on that character. That provides more reason why SKI scaling should be given to guns since any other class might not provide decent abilities to increase guns' overall combat power.

On top of that, Bows in general outclass guns on base damage, are provided more accuracy from their base class, and gain crit bonuses that guns don't get, it's not even about Arbalests punching holes through people, it's about how guns are the worst weapons in the game in overall damage output. The best argument you can make about guns to bows is the shells and the fact that if you hit a spirit mirror, you reflect less damage on yourself because guns are weaker.

I'm not even talking about, and don't have a problem with the Magic Gunner class, I'm talking about why guns are absolute pieces of crap in combat. Handguns should not be the go to for all gunners in the game, which they are based on the fact they provide more anything than any other time of gun in the game other than shell power due to One-Overload.

This should not be the general consensus of people's opinions on guns in the game. (Refer to the pastebin below.)

http://pastebin.com/mceJPyKR

tl;dr Handgun master race, everything else is shit.


So point remaining, for guns in general, there needs to be a change in the way they operate. Not just making everything rely on certain skills in the MG tree. That makes the class and weapon type unfun and kills a huge ideal for characters and makes them not even worth using in a combat scenario.

[Soapy]

Guns are extremely good, and always have been.

Single shot guns are a bit lackluster though, especially snipers - which can be helped out a lot with shock collar/conversion gloves, although at the cost of two item slots.

Honestly, I think the problem is just the lack of variety. It's pretty much 'use two autopistols/hold uppers or suffer'.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

Soapy » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:47 pm[/url]"]Single shot guns are a bit lackluster though, especially snipers - which can be helped out a lot with shock collar/conversion gloves, although at the cost of two item slots.

Honestly, I think the problem is just the lack of variety. It's pretty much 'use two autopistols/hold uppers or suffer'.

I still disagree on the fact to provide better damage you're gonna need to make a profitable sacrifice. I mean, it's good in the long run to go, "if you want something better, pay for it", but not to make the weapon viable. I mean, 17 power is decent enough on the weapon, and you can't exactly make that any higher unless you gave it rebelling, which still halves it (maybe single shot guns could get the full benefit?)

As for variety, I'm not opposed to either. Only problem there is getting the weapon, which still may take forever since guns can't be crafted. Although, crafting guns can be solved by forcing them to have only 1 positive quality through a hard code measure.

[Lolzytripd]

75% from 50% is only +20 damage at 80 skill compared to the 25 shotguns get, learn to math.

[Argonus]

I agree whole heatedly that shotguns and rifles need some sort of boost. Even with MG's passives they still have no comparison to handguns, and that's without akimbo. Not only that, handguns multiple hits offer more chances to crit, which for a MG means a spark drive trigger almost every time.

We could increase the skill scaling of rifles and shotguns, but I think that increasing the base crit substantially would be better.

[Rendar]

Shotgun gets a cone AoE or cone past their target < or hit everything inbetween them and target >. If they are within 2 squares of you, you deal 25-50% more damage.

Rifle pierces through targets if they're in line < Snipe rifle only > and if in a line with target, damage is increase by 10%

[Daisuke]

For comparison, here is what a min-maxed MG would look like (before will growth was added to fluency)

Everything was unequipped there so the mods are from innates and stamps

-secret flex-

But yeah, is this topic about guns in general or single-shot guns because Akimbo gives multihit guns insane damage potential, I highly doubt that needs a buff.