[Hippie]

Black Knight Buff
Shut Up Edition

(I'm dumb, so I'm moving it here instead.)

Kept you waiting, huh?

I made a thread complaining about Black Knight's helplessness about Magic Gunners (and specially so the ice shell) a few months back or so, now. I've been familiarizing myself more with the class now the more I play it, and I've taken notice of a core flaw that is really, really troubling and very much worth mentioning.

Silence.

I'm aware that Dev mentioned he's planning to buff Black Knights soon-ish or so, and that's exactly why I'm posting this. Silence is a core aspect the class needs and desperately so. Destiny Soldier has no means to stop magic in the slightest. Soldier, Demon Hunter, Black Knight and Tactician have no way to stop a mage.

The closest you can come to stopping a mage is with Knockdown and trying to run off, but that's not exactly going to work out if you have no means to kite. Unless you've taken Cobra, you're absolutely doomed no matter what you try to do. If you Knockdown an invocating mage, you're left in their proximity to be nuked regardless. If you try to run, they can easily catch up to you by Blinking alone. There is nothing you can really do to take a ridiculous amount of damage whatsoever.

Not to mention, Evokers have the ability to inflict Knockdown on you if you're sitting nearby and they're casting an invocation. Meaning, there's really no way out. You don't have Kip Up to get out of there quick. You're doomed one way or another.

Black Knight is also a physical defense class, not a magic one. Unless you're willing to swap out your entire build for the simple goal of being able to resist magic, you're not going to go far when there's a mage in front of you. Magical damage is the go-to choice and with no way to resist it whatsoever, any class with good Magical damage (i.e. Kadouha from Monk), is going to absolutely demolish you no matter what you try to do.

Silence is a must. Without it, there's little chance for a Black Knight to stand a chance. My hope is that Dev adds it with the planned Black Knight buff. Without it, Black Knight will just be refrained to be a 'some bonus phys res and some utilities' class. At least with Silence, it can stand a chance.

[PantherPrincess]

Playing destiny Soldiers has definitely shown me that magical damage is a huge problem for you. I 100% agree with this. It's been a long time coming but BK should have received a way to silence a long time ago. 9 times out of 10 any build infused with magical damage will just utterly destroy you as a BK, even more so if you are a destiny Soldier user because you have no sub class that gives you a window to stop magic leaving you no way to defend yourself besides tanking and hoping your HP is enough to live through it.

[Kameron8]

I don't really agree with these concerns -- here are my thoughts on each point you mentioned.

I'm aware that Dev mentioned he's planning to buff Black Knights soon-ish or so, and that's exactly why I'm posting this. Silence is a core aspect the class needs and desperately so. Destiny Soldier has no means to stop magic in the slightest. Soldier, Demon Hunter, Black Knight and Tactician have no way to stop a mage.

It's hard to argue that Cobra stance doesn't slow magic down, and this complaint seems centered on the idea that somehow being a Destiny Soldier forbids you from pumping your Resistance. Tactician has one of the best repertoires in the game for spells and skills, and Black Knight is intentionally weak against magic.

The closest you can come to stopping a mage is with Knockdown and trying to run off, but that's not exactly going to work out if you have no means to kite. Unless you've taken Cobra, you're absolutely doomed no matter what you try to do. If you Knockdown an invocating mage, you're left in their proximity to be nuked regardless. If you try to run, they can easily catch up to you by Blinking alone. There is nothing you can really do to take a ridiculous amount of damage whatsoever.

This feels more like an issue with your individual setup, than a weakness of the class tree in general. In no regard are you doomed if you can't kite a mage, and your movement options are arguably as strong or stronger than Blink with access to Charge , Charging Strike -> Retreating Swipe, Winged Serpent, Retaliate, or Hanging. Reaver and Tactician are both handily capable of matching damage numbers against an Evoker, Hexer, or whatever flavor of mage you're facing; again, I recommend you invest more points into Resistance.

Black Knight is also a physical defense class, not a magic one. Unless you're willing to swap out your entire build for the simple goal of being able to resist magic, you're not going to go far when there's a mage in front of you. Magical damage is the go-to choice and with no way to resist it whatsoever, any class with good Magical damage (i.e. Kadouha from Monk), is going to absolutely demolish you no matter what you try to do.

As previously mentioned, Black Knight as a class is designed to be weak against high mobility and magic damage. Your sub-class can help mitigate this weakness, but doubling down on the class' strengths to build yourself an iron wall with no movement options is obviously going to mean you'll struggle in those circumstances. That is by design: a Void Assassin who has a negative crit chance against you, and can't survive a string of autohits, would be in the same position as you are when trying to catch a nimble mage.

Silence is a must. Without it, there's little chance for a Black Knight to stand a chance. My hope is that Dev adds it with the planned Black Knight buff. Without it, Black Knight will just be refrained to be a 'some bonus phys res and some utilities' class. At least with Silence, it can stand a chance.

This conclusion is terribly narrow, and really seems to be drawn off of a lot of faulty assumptions. Silence isn't the end all be all of fighting mages, and there has been a great deal of discussion over the years on how oppressive silence is against pure casters. You're free to disagree with my assessment, but my personal thoughts on the matter are that you are demanding a means to fight against a class counter without having to change your setup to compensate.

Build Resistance, use items that give %resistances, and don't run a Black Knight/Matador DH with the expectation that you can stomp on your hard counters as much as you stomp on the physical damage dealers you counter.

[Hippie]

It's hard to argue that Cobra stance doesn't slow magic down, and this complaint seems centered on the idea that somehow being a Destiny Soldier forbids you from pumping your Resistance. Tactician has one of the best repertoires in the game for spells and skills, and Black Knight is intentionally weak against magic.

I run a BK/DH Matador build with a focus on damage and tanking. My RES sits just short of 50%, and even then the Magical damage I take ranges from absurd to complete doom. I could easily take Cobra to fight Magic users, for sure - but that would mean that I would have to change up my entire build for that to happen to begin with. Cobra requires high dodge to be able to reliably dodge always, thus meaning I need to spend a lot of points into CEL and LUC, and change equipment to meet a certain threshold. That's where I would say this point falls. How can I counter magic with Cobra if that would mean I'd have to give up tanking? That alone makes the build not viable, but I'll get to that point more in-depth soon.

This feels more like an issue with your individual setup, than a weakness of the class tree in general. In no regard are you doomed if you can't kite a mage, and your movement options are arguably as strong or stronger than Blink with access to Charge , Charging Strike -> Retreating Swipe, Winged Serpent, Retaliate, or Hanging. Reaver and Tactician are both handily capable of matching damage numbers against an Evoker, Hexer, or whatever flavor of mage you're facing; again, I recommend you invest more points into Resistance.

If I can't kite a mage, I'll be eating up all the damage they deal to me. If I try to kite a mage, they'll catch up easily and dish out the damage that even with 50% RES I struggle to survive. Black Knight is terrible at the cat and mouse game, and specially when you're meant to be the cat and you're forced to run. Retreating Swipe is incredibly good for movement, I won't lie, despite the Momentum it eats up. Winged Serpent is likewise good if you've spared some points for Cobra. Retaliate and Hanging won't help you kite, though. Even with near 50% RES, Magic damage is my bane, no matter where it comes from. Be it a Kadouha with nearly no light attack built and such.

It's telling that BK struggles with Magic damage from anyone who isn't slower than you (and that's a lot of people we're talking about) while Martial Artist gets plenty of damage reduction for both physical and magic damage. When the class that is supposed to tank gets outdone at tanking by the mobile class, there's a problem to be found there, but perhaps an issue of it's own.

As previously mentioned, Black Knight as a class is designed to be weak against high mobility and magic damage. Your sub-class can help mitigate this weakness, but doubling down on the class' strengths to build yourself an iron wall with no movement options is obviously going to mean you'll struggle in those circumstances. That is by design: a Void Assassin who has a negative crit chance against you, and can't survive a string of autohits, would be in the same position as you are when trying to catch a nimble mage.

There's a difference between a counter and complete doom. I've fought classes that counter me before, and it's fair to say that the odds are tilted way in their favor than in mine - but those are fights I can still win if I manage to outplay whoever I'm fighting. Then, much like I mentioned in a previous thread with MG shells, there's complete doom. Bringing up the example I did back then; when an MG starts spamming ice bullets at me, that's the end of the entire fight for me. I can't move and I'm forced to sit around for a good few rounds taking damage until I die.

Fighting a Mage, Evokers specifically, feels much the same to me. There's only so much running I can do when I'm one turn away of taking 800 damage. By no means I say that BK should become Evoker's counter just because I find myself getting nuked every time I fight one, but the fact that there's not really much you can do about is why I made this thread to begin with. Magic should be a counter to Black Knight, but not so in a way that means it's a game over from round 0. Even folks that run Winged Serpent face a hard time against magic as I do.

This conclusion is terribly narrow, and really seems to be drawn off of a lot of faulty assumptions. Silence isn't the end all be all of fighting mages, and there has been a great deal of discussion over the years on how oppressive silence is against pure casters. You're free to disagree with my assessment, but my personal thoughts on the matter are that you are demanding a means to fight against a class counter without having to change your setup to compensate.

Build Resistance, use items that give %resistances, and don't run a Black Knight/Matador DH with the expectation that you can stomp on your hard counters as much as you stomp on the physical damage dealers you counter.

My expectation is not to stomp my hard counters, my expectation is to not be wiped a round or so in. I'm no PVP savant; even I know that it plays like rock paper scissors.

Perhaps saying Silence is required is mistaken, I can say that much. Silence can still be played against fairly easily. In the case of a Destiny Mage, a Heron Feather can make a good difference. And though a perhaps worse example, considering the context of this thread, a Curate can outright cure and become immune to Silence right away.

The point I'm trying to make here is that how terribly weak BK/DH plays out against some classes is just outright pitiful. Again, I understand the concept of counters. But being outright doomed from the start feels like it shouldn't be a thing to begin with. The PVP system feels like it was designed to play in 4v4s where everyone fulfills a different role rather than 1v1s, where it's a gamble to see who you have to fight.

I stand firm on the point that Black Knight needs at least a way to fight a mage. From the countless fights I've done against mages and with the RES I have already, the damage I seem to be taking is still absurd. Whether Silence is the way to go about it or not is up for debate still.

[PantherPrincess]

The same argument can be said that not everybody uses cobra or can. And packing resistance can get you somewhere but even then it isn't the all final answer because I've tried it, it still hurts you. I even sometimes end up dying before I can use retaliate. The X countering X argument isn't really efficient when something completely utterly destroys a setup in a couple of turns or less just because you have no way of silencing them or surviving high exceeds of magical damage. As it stands right now BK is often used as a sub class lets admit it. I'm all for it getting either a silence skill or a skill that gives DR.

[Sawrock]

How about multiple skills:
One three-rank innate skill that gives guard a bonus to magical defense (+10% per rank, still capped at 70% overall).
One two-point passive skill that gives a chance of silence to Prophylaxis (second rank makes it Innate).
One two-point passive skill that gives a chance of silence to Hanging with a status infliction check (second rank makes it Innate).
EDIT: Disregard my suggestions- I'm not for balancing classes evenly for 1v1s and seeing as how it was brought up that yes, Mages are a Black Knight's weakness, I no longer desire to have this class buffed to better combat them.

[Autumn]

I run a BK/DH Matador build with a focus on damage and tanking. My RES sits just short of 50%, and even then the Magical damage I take ranges from absurd to complete doom. I could easily take Cobra to fight Magic users, for sure - but that would mean that I would have to change up my entire build for that to happen to begin with. Cobra requires high dodge to be able to reliably dodge always, thus meaning I need to spend a lot of points into CEL and LUC, and change equipment to meet a certain threshold. That's where I would say this point falls. How can I counter magic with Cobra if that would mean I'd have to give up tanking? That alone makes the build not viable, but I'll get to that point more in-depth soon.

Not building for cobra is completely understandable, considering as a destiny soldier (especially DH/BK) I can see you needing to explore different options in order to mitigate the amount of punishment you'd be otherwise taking from magic, magical damage is VERY strong currently, as it should be really though, almost everyone needs to deal with its damage output regardless, some new traits actually help out quite a lot versus magic as they usually lack multi hits that do a lot of damage, like Arcane Barrier.

If I can't kite a mage, I'll be eating up all the damage they deal to me. If I try to kite a mage, they'll catch up easily and dish out the damage that even with 50% RES I struggle to survive. Black Knight is terrible at the cat and mouse game, and specially when you're meant to be the cat and you're forced to run. Retreating Swipe is incredibly good for movement, I won't lie, despite the Momentum it eats up. Winged Serpent is likewise good if you've spared some points for Cobra. Retaliate and Hanging won't help you kite, though. Even with near 50% RES, Magic damage is my bane, no matter where it comes from. Be it a Kadouha with nearly no light attack built and such.

It's telling that BK struggles with Magic damage from anyone who isn't slower than you (and that's a lot of people we're talking about) while Martial Artist gets plenty of damage reduction for both physical and magic damage. When the class that is supposed to tank gets outdone at tanking by the mobile class, there's a problem to be found there, but perhaps an issue of it's own.

One thing needed in the match-up is knowing proper spacing, as brought up earlier a soldier class tends to have incredibly powerful movement abilities, charge covers a very large distance and charging strike exists to compliment this immensely, often giving you the tools to be able to play the spacing game, even rivaling that of ranger and arbalest, shinken and retreating swipe both serve as fine examples of this, especially with Shinken's amazing elemental impacts, this can be used in place of approaching, making folk approach you instead, soldiers have several options available to them.

The point being that from afar with stuff like shinken and retreating swipe, a mage is forced to spend momentum to come to you, which is not often something they want to do in any team fight, given that usually being in the crowd tends to mean instant death to just about anyone nowadays, as for 1v1s I very much dislike the idea of solely balancing the game around them since they will be often be rock paper scissors among the people who know what they're doing anyway, but for the sake of the topic I'll keep to that.

Every build is going to have some sort of weakness regardless, covering as many as you can as a tank is often quite inspired, I suggest using an elemental resistance shield versus mages, the combination of Bulwark, Guard and elemental resistance serves as an extremely effective tool to surviving against them, a two handed knight spec'd against phys however should not be running toe to toe with a dedicated mage, their ilk is way more suited against physical damage dealers like duelists, which often enough monks struggle with on their own, they're not as perfect of a tanking class as you'd think.

There's a difference between a counter and complete doom. I've fought classes that counter me before, and it's fair to say that the odds are tilted way in their favor than in mine - but those are fights I can still win if I manage to outplay whoever I'm fighting. Then, much like I mentioned in a previous thread with MG shells, there's complete doom. Bringing up the example I did back then; when an MG starts spamming ice bullets at me, that's the end of the entire fight for me. I can't move and I'm forced to sit around for a good few rounds taking damage until I die.

Fighting a Mage, Evokers specifically, feels much the same to me. There's only so much running I can do when I'm one turn away of taking 800 damage. By no means I say that BK should become Evoker's counter just because I find myself getting nuked every time I fight one, but the fact that there's not really much you can do about is why I made this thread to begin with. Magic should be a counter to Black Knight, but not so in a way that means it's a game over from round 0. Even folks that run Winged Serpent face a hard time against magic as I do.

I don't see how folk with Snake Dancer or Winged serpent should be having nearly as much trouble as you are versus mages, as I think snake dancer and winged serpent do an excellent enough job at keeping them at bay, especially when used in conjunction with one another, you brought up 'complete doom' like scenarios, while they are very rare nowadays they can still exist I can agree with that, but the problem that lies in with that is that you either did not cover that weakness or you let it happen in the first place, veering off to the side slightly here but celicus shell is its own special kind of bullshit, unavoidable like most charge minded spells are.

My expectation is not to stomp my hard counters, my expectation is to not be wiped a round or so in. I'm no PVP savant; even I know that it plays like rock paper scissors.

Perhaps saying Silence is required is mistaken, I can say that much. Silence can still be played against fairly easily. In the case of a Destiny Mage, a Heron Feather can make a good difference. And though a perhaps worse example, considering the context of this thread, a Curate can outright cure and become immune to Silence right away.

The point I'm trying to make here is that how terribly weak BK/DH plays out against some classes is just outright pitiful. Again, I understand the concept of counters. But being outright doomed from the start feels like it shouldn't be a thing to begin with. The PVP system feels like it was designed to play in 4v4s where everyone fulfills a different role rather than 1v1s, where it's a gamble to see who you have to fight.

I stand firm on the point that Black Knight needs at least a way to fight a mage. From the countless fights I've done against mages and with the RES I have already, the damage I seem to be taking is still absurd. Whether Silence is the way to go about it or not is up for debate still.

Its great that you've acknowledged that BKs don't quite need a silence, since in my honest opinion that shouldn't be the case, instead of shoe-horning in a meta offensive effect for them when you could instead offer them defensive options such as more shield skills, DH/BK is far from a bad class combo, they have really good damage and superior mobility, they often flip physical damage builds such as duelists and VAs onto their back and make it a living hell, such is the way you're talking about the mage match-up, evokers specifically are not in a good spot when faced with better players as they play out the exact same way in any given fight. I tend to attribute evoker to being the skill/knowledge wall for this game, as literally anyone can beat them now with the tools they are provided, if you can't beat a dedicated evoker in a 1v1, you played the match-up wrong. (This of course can change given other setups, given those evokers cover their weaknesses with other classes.)

I'd argue that currently destiny soldier is one of the better picks to be playing right now, given its amazing 1v1 potential and its solid pressure in a team fight, as well as the options that are open to it in any given fight, it comes with the weakness versus magic but the strength versus physical damage, you just need to explore different options to make magic less of a hassle to fight against, here's some I'd suggest without simply just suggesting to change your class combo:

-Grabbing magic stones and cleanse potions, namely Requinite and Morganite, requinite can purge charge mind, elemental enchants and HSDW, which can be essential to surviving against a mage.

-Nabbing yourself a shield, I'll say it again, my pure tanks end up surviving and beating a lot of mages due to how good bulwark + guard is, its damage reduction is severely under rated.

-Learning more about the spacing of what you are facing., mages can sometimes be attributed to having the exact same range as you, not a lot of spells actually reach disgustingly far anymore, save for a few.

[Snake]

lmfao

75% damage reduction on Sword, Axe and Spear if you put your back against a wall
Around 40 Critical Evade
Bonus 10% reduction to all physical damage for using heavy armor, and goes up to 20%+ if using offensive skills
A torso that further increases that to 50%
+6% bonus DEF
Not even counting your actual DEF investment.

Black Knight's theme, since pre-GR, was to be a wall against physical damage. So I think it is fine as it is. Adding methods of combating magic would make it way too overkill. Especially when the class that are /supposed/ to be anti-magic only perform poorly against it because people are always greedy for big dick damage and don't build right or get the right equipment.

If you only invest in STR/DEF and not VIT/RES, or like Spoops said, use a shield, which is a further 10%/30%/70% reduction on top of whatever elemental resistances said shield grants to you (I know some give +30% in one element), that's more a you problem for trying to use Two-Handed and go for damage and expect to not get 100-0'd against your nat counter.

But 'MAYBE' just 'MAYBE', they could get an incurable 1 round silence at a rank 5, on a sword autohit that they should get in the future. Since that's the only weapon type they lack for an offensive skill.

[Fern]

Bleached Fang on Torso, Beldam Aegis, Sylph Cloak, Sayakana, Firewalkers and Whynesfelt.

I think BK/DH is fine enough against magic and basic attacks.

That also gets roughly 106 Critical Evade.

Its damage is okay, not insane by default, not low, but it unfortunately can't have everything.

[Senna]

I was a little confused about this thread, I've seen Destiny Soldier run a train on spell casters. Hell, them ACTUALLY using a shield is pretty solid too (You deadass have to stall them out). It's all up to how you build and the items you're using. I myself have a destiny soldier character (Reaper; even tho I don't play them that often) and I can tell you for sure that shit is strong (I rarely lost fights on it, only against 1 class). Of course it has bad match-ups like every other classes and combinations but aside from that, it seems fine to me. (Summary without getting technical). Also, I like Fern's BK/DH build, that seems pretty good.