[Chaos]

So I'm guessing this is a complaint thread about Evoker. In that case, the only thing about that class that -might- need to brought down a notch is Charge Mind, for the virtue that nowadays, using it has very few downsides in exchange for making RES look close to useless. I suppose that elemental resistance still keeps it in line, though, unless we get an update that lets people blow through that too.

Rockabye » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:01 am[/url]"]tl;dr: No, no class should be able to match Evoker in terms of raw damage output, because other classes have more room for strategy. For an Evoker, damage is the only strategy. If there ever were a melee class that could move in on Evoker's gimmick, it would need to be something like... surprise, surprise: Berserker.

This is the wrong way to go about it; Evoker is the king of raw damage output when it comes to WIL and/or spells. A nuke mage on the class board shouldn't mean that classes like VA can't setup and achieve critical hits that can rip you apart in 2-3 attacks, or that MG can't burn through most of your HP with a single, well-placed and well-prepared shot. You also have to take defensive values into account; an Evoker will burn through anything that doesn't bother with RES or elemental resistance, but against an anti-magic character, they don't have a chance compared to physical melee.

[Miller]

Chaos » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:06 am[/url]"]So I'm guessing this is a complaint thread about Evoker. In that case, the only thing about that class that -might- need to brought down a notch is Charge Mind, for the virtue that nowadays

I disagree entirely.

1) Charge Mind is a positive stealable buff.
2) It's great in PvE, sure. But it's a big give away that an Evoker is gonna burn you to a crisp or cause an earth quake.
3) It's power needs to be worth spending the momentum on.

[Rendar]

Yes because out of the five buffs that you can throw up, including a minor will pot, you're chances to steal it are next to slim. Steal is not an effective strategy to fight it and you know it.

[Daisuke]

How about nerfing their spell's will scaling and buffing Charge Mind? This way their damage is about the same and more about their nuke pattern instead of going "CM, nuke, normal spells till you die". It gives whoever you're fighting a window where Evokers are weak and being able to deal with CM becomes a significant counter.
Basically, tie most of their power into CM to make them more about being nuke mages instead of really strong mages with a strong buff now and then.

I dunno if it's necessary but I do think if you were going to change Evokers, that would be a good place to start.

[Rendar]

That's actually a.. pretty decent idea. Evoker spells could start off moderately weak, 80% or 75% WIL scaling, wherein that Chargeminding gives them a pretty strong buff.

[MegaBlues]

That's an awful idea. Spells/skills with weak scaling usually have some sort of secondary effect, and Charge Mind is supposed to be a buff, not a necessity. Their spells would deal damage in the 30ies if they used such low scaling.

Plus, the buff to Charge Mind would have to be -immense- to make up for it. Unfairly so.

[Ranylyn]

Daisuke » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:13 pm[/url]"]How about nerfing their spell's will scaling and buffing Charge Mind? This way their damage is about the same and more about their nuke pattern instead of going "CM, nuke, normal spells till you die". It gives whoever you're fighting a window where Evokers are weak and being able to deal with CM becomes a significant counter.
Basically, tie most of their power into CM to make them more about being nuke mages instead of really strong mages with a strong buff now and then.

I dunno if it's necessary but I do think if you were going to change Evokers, that would be a good place to start.

100% NO. Not ever. Under any circumstance.

Evoker is already just "duuur charge mind, cast, charge mind, cast." And it shouldn't be. Charge mind should be a tactical option but not THE absolute go to thing. As is, it already is. Your idea would just make that problem even worse.

As is, Charge Mind is supposed to do 2.5x damage. So let's use non invocations as an example. Over two turns, theoretically you could CM and attack twice for 3.5x Damage, or attack four times for 4x damage. CM is ideal for getting that one first nuke in, if you couldn't attack on that first turn due to range. But wait! The issue lies in how Resistance is affected. It's not 2.5x total damage, it's 2.5x damage before resistance. So boom, if your opponent has any resistance, CM is already something you use all the time, because it will turn a total of 50 into a total of 200 if you'd have done closer to 100 (100 x 2.5 - 50 res) as opposed to the 100 you'd do if you just cast twice. in that time, or rather, 300 damage vs 200 in the same time.

"Baaaw, if it didn't do more, it wouldn't be worth using!" Uh, shut up and research a little thing called "Tactics." It's wonderful for invocations, which you can't rpeatedly cast anyways, or for landing that one first nuke if your opponent started out of range. But CM, as is, is stupidly overwhelming to the point of completely dominating any other Evoker "strategy." And any gamer who's been playing for a decent period of time (Over 20 years, in my case) knows that if a character has a completly centralizing skill that makes all their other skills obsolete... the ABSOLUTE LAST thing to ever even consider is to BUFF THAT ONE THING.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

Daisuke » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:13 pm[/url]"]How about nerfing their spell's will scaling and buffing Charge Mind? This way their damage is about the same and more about their nuke pattern instead of going "CM, nuke, normal spells till you die". It gives whoever you're fighting a window where Evokers are weak and being able to deal with CM becomes a significant counter.
Basically, tie most of their power into CM to make them more about being nuke mages instead of really strong mages with a strong buff now and then.

I dunno if it's necessary but I do think if you were going to change Evokers, that would be a good place to start.

I'd rather not have my Evoker spells do less damage than my Mage spells for more FP cost.

Miu and Libegrande is a perfect example.

r5 Libegrande is 26 FP with WIL+25. r5 Miu is 16 FP with WIL+10.

WIL 100 (just to make the % change easier).

Miu for 16 FP would do 110 damage.

Libegrande for 26 FP would do at 80%, 105 damage. At 75% would do 100 damage. On both accounts, Miu costs less, and does more damage.

No thanks.

[Haunted Evil Pajamas]

I understand the reasoning being this, I too dislike magic, but I'm always willing to give it a fair chance without just blaming it for no good reason, so here are some "good" reasons:

-Almost every spell (key word almost) is very useful and powerful, as they almost all apply 100% of your WIL to the damage (key word almost again). Many melee skill (key word many) apply a fraction of your STR or a fraction of STR and SKI (fray is the example for that) and are rendered much weaker than any magic will ever be, this is just for auto-hits keep in mind, but spells are all auto-hit.

-Mages only NEED to focus on one stat, WIL, and for defensive purposes they have some nice CEL along with applying a debuff like blind or using whatever curse or hex they want. Melee users pretty much NEED to focus on STR, SKI, DEF (or CEL if you like going fyast), a little bit of WIL for manageable FP (I feel so sorry for Shaitan) along with some alright LUC for crit rate but thats optional (Unless you're a CEL build and rely on dodging). Because of this, melee users tend to have much lower growths on the stats they need compared to mages, not to mention, WIL is pretty much the easiest stat to raise.

-While mages lack the ability to crit with magic (*COUGH* Ryemei), they make up for it by abusing weaknesses very easily, and utility. Many melee skills are single target, or have some short range and AoE (and those skills tend to suck in terms of damage), mage classes tend to have very nice and effective range and AoE, now before you mention the FP cost of magic, yes, magic tends to cost more FP than melee, but mages tend to have lots of FP because thats what WIL does.

-Melee is much easier to resist than magic, this reason mainly goes to PvE over PvP, as mages tend to have low DEF. Many monsters tend to have much higher DEF than RES, and if they have low DEF, their RES is probably only a few points higher. In terms of the player resisting magic, the best ways to resist magic, is to be a mage yourself, melee classes have terrible RES growths, except for ghost, but if you want a high enough RES growth for it to be valuable, you need to main Ghost, and Ghost has some of the worst growths for other stats I've ever seen.

If I could state an honest opinion to balance this dilemma it would be this:
-Create a new stat, this stat would have 1 purpose and 1 purpose only, increasing your max FP, and in return, making WIL give you much less FP (or none at all). With this stat, Melee users can have manageable FP without having enough magic damage potential to turn themselves in spellswords, or just outright mages. This stat will also force mages to focus on more than one major stat, thus resulting in weakening them slightly (unless you decide to give Evoker a super high growth in this stat for some reason :/). Sadly I don't think this will happen, because it would involve revamping every classes growths with this new stat.

[MegaBlues]

-Almost every spell (key word almost) is very useful and powerful, as they almost all apply 100% of your WIL to the damage (key word almost again). Many melee skill (key word many) apply a fraction of your STR or a fraction of STR and SKI (fray is the example for that) and are rendered much weaker than any magic will ever be, this is just for auto-hits keep in mind, but spells are all auto-hit.

Mostly all of the Mage spells are useless, along with Libgrande and Wind Slasher. The physical skills that use a portion of Strength are limited to Kensei, mostly. The grand majority use a full stat (Here's looking at you, Verglas.)

-Mages only NEED to focus on one stat, WIL, and for defensive purposes they have some nice CEL along with applying a debuff like blind or using whatever curse or hex they want. Melee users pretty much NEED to focus on STR, SKI, DEF (or CEL if you like going fyast), a little bit of WIL for manageable FP (I feel so sorry for Shaitan) along with some alright LUC for crit rate but thats optional (Unless you're a CEL build and rely on dodging). Because of this, melee users tend to have much lower growths on the stats they need compared to mages, not to mention, WIL is pretty much the easiest stat to raise.

If Magic users only want to deal damage, they can use Will. If Melee users only want to deal damage, they can use Strength. However, if either of them want to actually survive, they'll need a bit of everything, especially since if someone wants to hit you, chances are, you'll be hit.

-While mages lack the ability to crit with magic (*COUGH* Ryemei), they make up for it by abusing weaknesses very easily, and utility. Many melee skills are single target, or have some short range and AoE (and those skills tend to suck in terms of damage), mage classes tend to have very nice and effective range and AoE, now before you mention the FP cost of magic, yes, magic tends to cost more FP than melee, but mages tend to have lots of FP because thats what WIL does.

Good luck ever hitting a weakness in PvP. Lantern Bearer AoE's get very weak at long ranges, Evokers only have a few AoE spells, and Hexer spells have horrible damage scaling.

-Melee is much easier to resist than magic, this reason mainly goes to PvE over PvP, as mages tend to have low DEF. Many monsters tend to have much higher DEF than RES, and if they have low DEF, their RES is probably only a few points higher. In terms of the player resisting magic, the best ways to resist magic, is to be a mage yourself, melee classes have terrible RES growths, except for ghost, but if you want a high enough RES growth for it to be valuable, you need to main Ghost, and Ghost has some of the worst growths for other stats I've ever seen.

Monsters also tend to have elemental resistances, which is much more potent than Defense could ever hope to be. All classes but three have awful Resistance growths, and the same could be said for Defense. Also, did you -really- just say that Melee is easier to resist than magic? -Really-? That pretty much invalidates everything else you have to say. It's well known that magic is -much- easier to resist than melee.

So, essentially, everything you just said isn't true.

http://webmup.com/GCbB3/vid.webm