[FaeLenx]

Main Problems:

Razor Rune:

Where it works:
-It's a solid damage dealer that feels gratifying to use.
-Strong in PvE like every other AoE.
-Pretty solid in PVP if you can get a large runestack off and someone is close enough to hit them with it.
-About as much damage potential in two turns as a charge minded evoker spell.
Where it doesn't:
-It's incredibly hard to break with melee skills. Warding runes and smoke runes make this nearly impossible. A large, overstacked rune link can decide a PvP and PvE fight both.
-The damage is on par with a charged up evoker spell, but it's the gift that keeps on giving unless someone can destroy it.

Suggested Changes:
- Make Melee skills destroy it in one shot. This could be the same as any rune link, or maybe just null links. This might be hard to code, but it would make large runestacks more counterable. This could be a good idea in general.
-Make the damage higher but only hit once per round. It could apply a debuff or something of the sort to make that easier to track. This means there wouldn't be the super beyblade roundabout that can decimate well over 800 HP, but you also wouldn't be able to kite them as effectively to make them deal 80 damage only. The difference between damage when it comes to positioning is overtuned.
-Make the damage scale off of SWA so people can stop complaining about it being stat independent. It'll probably end up doing the same damage regardless for most runemages.

Anchor Rune:

Where it works:
-Singular solid force of Crowd Control on Runemage besides warding.
-Runemage doesn't have a source of innate silence so this isn't too oppressive against most builds unless they're comboing another item or class.
Where it doesn't:
-Situationally useless because immobilize is often countered entirely through moves that aren't tagged as movement or blink.
-Engraving is broken and does not function at all.
-Nerf immobilize. This is just a problematic status effect in general.

Suggested Changes:
Nerf immobilize

Other suggestions:

-Make attacks in melee range deal 20 damage to runes.
-Smoke is an incredibly oppressive effect on the battlefield. Combine that with warding and you have the ability to lock people without teleportation in a death circle where they can't easily see you to attack you. An AoE blind would be okay but weak. At least making the area of smoke smaller might be good. Or a ring effect so that anyone inside can see inside it.
-Void Assassin Extend void becomes an incredibly oppressive force with the rune mage and ramps the class's damage dealing capabilities up to an insane degree. Two and a half turns of one momentum runecasting is devastating. Making Swift Rune Casting not work with VA alone would do wonders in balancing this class in the immediate moment. If nothing else, this needs a hit first.
-Make warding rune a ring effect so that anyone trapped inside can go tap the rune out of existence if they have no other options. Being stuck in the outside wing of the rock area is a traumatic experience.


TL;DR:
-VA mixed with Rune mage is an incredibly oppressive thing.
-Rune mage has a lot of versatility and while that's good, it can be oppressive to deal with for a lot of classes even if razor rune gets nerfed.

I'll leave any suggestions for the class to another thread. I'm gonna keep messing around with builds and the like, but I've managed to tear through perfectly reasonable builds without taking damage while underleveled and wearing piecemeal gear collected while leveling.

[Fern]

As it stands, a Razor Rune set up can delete a whole group of Level 60s even if they are geared towards tanking whiiiiich is admittedly a tad disheartening to see whenever it happens.

@Razor Rune: I think making it use SWA and not ignore armor is also an option, if nothing else works.

@Anchor Rune: Immobilize currently being a spammable status is the problem rather than the rune itself, yeeeeah.

I won't lie, the beyblade of death turned out to be pretty painful in practice after people got the gist of it. Way too painful, so it'd be appreciated if at least that one didn't immediately slaughter anyone while still being an appealing choice.

[Autumn]

My opinion about beyblade is that is simply does too much damage, building a super rune that can be thrown like a beyblade still has a ton of other effects, I think you could pretty much halve it from 10 per rune level to 5 per rune level and it'd still do respectable damage, but as it stands you can turn the thing, throw the thing, turn it again and throw it again for 4m, which is too little a cost for like 500-1000 damage.

I find Razor Rune pretty much the only unfun part of facing this class, its pretty ridiculous in the damage it can pull off, so thats all I can really add.

[FaeLenx]

If you could hop on your runemage, we can test the exact damage that can be dealt. I've never clocked a full 1k damage even on squishy targets, and I'm curious what rune combo you're using to deal it with only 4 momentum altogether spent. That's 1 momentum to cast the razor rune, one momentum to send it forward, and then two momentum to turn it around and then send it back, right?

I've needed to put down more for the ones that I deal even close to that damage with.

[Autumn]

There's a bit of a misunderstanding here, I said that it takes 4m to throw the rune 2 times.

I witnessed a very large rune doing around 60-70 per tick to a 60 RES target upwards to 5 times, then turning it again and launching it did upwards to 500 damage total, afaik the thing doesn't ignore RES just magic armor.

Now apply that to a squishier target (And have it ignore evasion thanks to haste rune) and you can see where I fairly reasonably came up with the number.

The combo specifically was using Solo Turn > Solo Rush > All Turn > All Rush, all skills that cost 1m to use, surmising up to 4m spent on actually letting the thing rip, not piling all the runes together momentum wise.

Arguing about how much time it takes to setup otherwise is one thing, but you have to admit this is kind of silly to achieve in only 2 rounds setup:



this time shown on a target with 26 RES (Scaling with rising game) to show how fast it tears through someone, if it had even half this damage it would still be VERY good to just let 'er rip, but it wouldn't insta kill someone, keeping in mind this thing still has a ton of effects on it and can explode for even more damage. (100% SWA 100% Elem Attack, +50% from destruction rune,+140% from rune level)

There are even some setups that run multiple beyblades setup at once, so its not just a problem with making 1 big rune either.

You said it yourself in your original post, so I'm not really arguing against anything here, I'm agreeing that beyblade is pretty damn strong, probably a little too strong.

As for extend void being strong with the class, yeah I agree, Swift Rune Casting should be an until next turn effect.

[Kameron8]

I agree with most of the points you put forth, but have a few additional criticisms about the class as a whole:

1. Having only two ways of dealing damage makes the class predictable and, at times, uninteresting. Your choices are to expend momentum on Elemental Runes, or to construct a Razor Rune that never goes away. As many people have already covered in this thread, the latter is optimal in both raw DPS and momentum efficiency. For a class that, in my opinion, seems to portray constructing/customizing a rune to deal with your current problems as a playstyle, your options for hurting the bad guy are extremely one-dimensional.
   • Like everyone else, I think max-stack Razor Runes linked with Null are too powerful. Outside of their one Swift Rune Casting window, however, Rune Mages don't seem to be even remotely able to compete with the damage output of other classes with just 3 runes per turn unless they turn to creating the aforementioned Beyblade. Elemental Rune -> Destruction Rune -> Haste Rune once per round doesn't hold a candle to anything with Fleur, or a double-tap of strong autohits.
     
   • Having an extremely small number of ways to damage enemies creates a very low complexity ceiling for the class. In my opinion, Rune Magician is the primary candidate for a class that should benefit from thinking ahead, setting traps, and trying to stay a step ahead of your opposition. It's a shame when optimal gameplay for something so unique devolves into slapping as many runes as possible on the ground and rolling it forward like a buzz saw.
     
   
   
   
2. Skill Points are too generous for the class. It's possible to get every single skill maxed in the tree as a human, and it leaves no room for variety between Rune Mages. You can't emphasize support, debuffs, or damage because you get everything as part of the package.
   
   
   
3. In the same vein, I think there are several missed opportunities for Runes that aren't present in the class' kit.
   
   • Offensively, poison and burn are notable examples that would add ways for the class to hurt enemies.
     
   • Defensively, the class pretty much only offers tile effects, Spiked Treads, and movement speed. I believe runes that Regen/Heal/Burst Heal on Engrave/Resonate/Trigger are missed opportunities. A rune that can help cope with negative statuses when triggered (e.g., when your entire class has been Silenced away) also seems like a slice of power missing. The point is, the class supports by hindering enemies, but has very little way of actively aiding their own team.
     

Despite these criticisms, I think the class has a fantastic identity, and could have an equally fantastic play pattern with some additional runes and power reallocation. I'm ecstatic that it finally got released, even with all the jokes about SL1's iteration of the class.

[FaeLenx]

What you wrote above is a good deconstruction of the class's flaws. Like I said, I was trying to focus mostly on the problems with balance at the moment and constructive ways to fix them moving forward.

The problem most people go with balance discussions regarding rune mage at the moment is that they do a science experiment where they see just how large they can get those numbers no matter how unrealistic the scenario and then roll with that. For a class that's susceptible to silence, positioning, and has no strong defenses to speak of, the idea that you'll ever get those doom-blades out onto the field is kinda silly.

I can definitely see that being a thing that happens in team fights if you have a good team to tackle together the enemy team and you can just sit there forever making mega runes, but it doesn't really happen in PVP fights. And they're hard countered by most rangers or other long ranged builds who can put themselves wherever they want. Which is good because ranger needs more good matchups.

A lot of your opinions are great ones, but they walk into the realm of buffing and re-working rune mage when most people are still reeling about the damage it deals.

And the problem with that argument is that in one moment, runemage can deal an infinite amount of damage. Quite literally, there is no upper level on how much a single all push can do. It just won't really ever do that damage in a real fight.

[Autumn]

I don't really agree that its an unrealistic scenario when you can do a lot against silence with initiative and heron feather or the other methods of dealing with silence, or you can mask the rune from being destroyed with smokescreen. It can happen pretty quickly in a fight, and then very quickly devolves the fight when it does.

It might be hard to achieve in a 1v1 though FaeLenx, that I can agree with given it is harder to manipulate an enemy's positioning on your own.

[Kameron8]

That's a fair criticism, even if I don't think some of the points presented are completely removed from the class' immediate balance.

As I prefaced in the previous post, I agree that Warding/Smokescreen are overbearing at keeping Runes alive, I agree that Razor is doing too much damage, and I agree that Extend Void synergizes too well with Swift Rune Casting. I don't, however, believe a lot of fundamental issues with the class will be fixed if those are addressed in a vacuum. I think the class will just be weak while it has the same issues I mentioned in the previous post -- instead of cheesy and circumstantially strong with those same issues.

But all that aside, if you think it's derailing the intention of the thread, take the TL;DR as I agree with your points.

[Senna]

It's still too early for us to try and get Runes reworked because people are abusing one trick. Why not target the problem first before thinking about adjusting things like that, yeah? For all you know, the class might not be that powerful without the Beyblade stacking.

If it turns out that way, we can always come back and make another thread on it.

While the class is new, it's oppressive, yes. Just like everything else, it has a few counter plays and options to shut it down completely. I've played and fought against the class enough to see the plus and flaws. The points about it only having two damage sources IS correct but the class itself wasn't made for mainly damage.

The immobilize problem thread has already been made, so that problem is addressed (https://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic....amp;t=7728).

As stated above, the problem are Smoke Rune & Ward Rune resonate effect as well as Null Rune linked effect;

Smoke Rune, while useful, prevents people from attacking the rune and destroying it via basic attack indefinitely. Suggestion? Why not let the smoke surrounds only the edge of the rune (Like a circle around the rune), a thin lay of smoke to avoid it losing it's effectiveness, as well as letting others be able to walk inside and attack the Rune if needed.

Ward Rune suggestion: Why not have it work similar to Boxer's Felsmanege? Whereas the inside is hollow? While it will still block people off/trapping people inside. This way, it won't completely prevent others from attacking/reaching it or lock off movements completely. (Has seen in Spo's gif, whereas the user wasn't able to move without Blink, Jetpack and so on. The same can apply if someone else gets trapped in it like that which isn't difficult.)

Null Rune is quite useful, however this is part of the reason why the beyblade is quite powerful. We do have two ways to prevent the trigger effects however this Rune solidify the problem. The individual would be ripped in half before they'd be able to fully destroy the super-rune if they, for some reason, couldn't get their hands on Smasher due to the trait's requirement. How about a suggestion? Once Null is linked, let it reset the Rune's HP to only ten.

Those suggestions are still bare but I do hope some sparks some idea.