[Perdition]

I think this weapon has potential, but it's currently restricted by its effect only working on evading basic attacks. If you allow that proc to work on Evasion! also, I think that small tweak could be enough for it to be a worthwhile weapon for people to consider as getting behind someone and immobilizing them is a huge boon for any kind of dagger user.

[Shujin]

Another thing thats a bit contra produktiv is the fact that "Ice statues" aren't really doing anything.

If they would at the very least function like Ice Points, I could see some use for them.

[JamOfBoy]

So, Divine Rain, Thousand Stab, any autohit with multiple instances of damage basically guarantees the Fangfare user TPs behind you and debuffs you. Can't say I'm a fan of that to be honest. Not only is the teleport behind you aspect a little... horribly meh - in most instances likely a drawback for the user - inflicting free immobilize because someone decided to cyclone spear with you in range is dumb and stupid and just plain annoying. Punishing people for attacking should have a cost, it's why mirror shield is so ungodly busted and unfun, it's free. I don't care that it's chance based in this instance. When it's evade only, at least then it's only punishing you MAYBE for MAYBE missing your attack.

If it's going to apply to evasion procs, give it a different effect. Clumsy, maybe even a little extra evasion DR, no teleport behind, but you move a tile away. Flavoured as letting the statue take the force of the blow, as you move out of the way. Leaves the statue there as a dense field object. Flottement, effectively.

[Perdition]

If it only applies to basic attack then the item remains worthless so it should have some interaction with evasion! too even if that means tweaking what it does. Also, the argument of multi proc autohits guaranteeing that the fangfare user gets to auto teleport behind you is no different than certain setups punishing those kinds of moves more than single hit ones already. Things like Bellplate and Fang Face shield punish multi hit attacks oppressively and are not near as bad for single shots. Mirrored is cancerous against multi hits far more than it is for single hits. Divine Rain, Thousand Stab and other things are also not things you NEED to use. If you're against a Fangfare user, nothing is forcing you to use those skills.

On top of that, it's still a str based dagger at the end of the day, so it's already at an additional disadvantage. Furthermore on top of that, other str based daggers in the form of the Tsukikage set can straight up teleport you behind people from a decent range. You trade a 24% chance to do so from any range to being guaranteed to do so at a generous range. A 24% chance to dodge behind someone is far from busted when you look beyond a couple of specific skills.

[JamOfBoy]

I'm not really sure what you mean. Multi-hit autohitting skills often aren't punished - in fact, they're the punish for things like Body of Isesip, Snake Dancer, and so on. Mirror enchant usually just means you reflect their 8 damage per thousand stab hit to deal 4 damage back to them - it's as unfun to play against as it would be anyway.

Bellplate and Fang Faced, in the context of a lack of mirror enchant, are fine. 24 damage inflicted to the attacker on basic hit when you're guarding. There are better shields for tanking, fang faced only works on basic hits. Bellplate is the best heavy armor but for it's stats, not it's effect. 20 sound damage to bows or guns on hit is oppressive, but it isn't something that applies to everyone - it applies to basic hits on two weapon types. You presented the only two on hit counters to ranged weapons, the substitute for magic mirror.

1/4 chance to teleport behind someone and inflict immobilize on them when you evade or trigger evasion is something that applies to everyone. Kensei, for instance, usually DELETES dagger basic hitters (as it rightly should). If you haven't felt true suffering yet, play a Kensei and fight someone who easily inflicts immobilize. Not that that's a bad thing in it's own right, classes should have counters, but inflicting immobilize just for having something equipped isn't ideal.

Tsukikage set requires the... set. That's the hand slot taken up, firstly, but it also requires you HIT, and importantly, requires them to be in RANGE. It's also something the person with the item DOES, not something that is just passively a threat. It's something someone commits to - you HAVE to hit someone, they HAVE to be in range. If they are? Burn, silence, free teleport behind them. If you can't hit them, if they range you, this doesn't work.

If I can't hit someone with your initially proposed fangfare, it doesn't matter. I do not want to see more of "Ah, I can hit them with anything, they can't hit me with anything, but hitting them is an active detriment and my reward for being in this favourable situation is dashed by something I cannot do anything about".

Otherwise, buff the dagger, yes.

[Perdition]

My point is that multihit attacks feel bad into other things that already exist already, and that's not a good argument against the change because it doesn't make those things broken, it just makes them good against multihits especially. This would only be an issue if some class/set up required you to constantly be multi hitting, but that isn't the case. If you see someone using a fangfare, you can just not use your multi hit.

As for immobilization, Anchor Edge has a 100% chance to immobilize on every crit. You can argue that requires the AE user to get in range, but in reality that's hardly a setback. Also in the case of Anchor Edge, it's incredibly easy to get enough crit to realistically crit all but the heaviest of c evade stackers.

As for Tsukikage, it requiring the set doesn't make sense as a counterpoint. Of course it requires the set--that's what the daggers do. That's like saying in order for you to teleport behind someone, you have to use Fangfare. Yes--that's the point. Fangfare cannot get a 2h bonus, so it not requiring a second weapon or handslot weapon is irrelevant here.

The issue with "I can't hit them with my dagger" has less to do with Fangfare and more to do with a universal dagger issue.

[Shujin]

"no teleport behind but move a tile away like flotterment"
I like to say, that this is basically all you do not want a dagger to do. Espicially if you can't turn this effect of like flotterment. being able to reposition behind the enemy during their turn, is a god send for dagger. Its literally where you get all your boni from and if it happens during the second action of the opponent, its possible that he can't turn around giving you one full turn to counter attack.

you could even do some cutthroat combo AND take distance again, rendering the enemies following turn relatively weak giving you some breathing room.

I do think the dagger needs a couple of tweaks. Its a boss 10* of one of the harder bosses even. It deserves being good.

[JamOfBoy]

Surprisingly, moving within range of someone when it isn't your turn? Not ideal, Shujin. Divine Rain/Thousand Stab/Any attack that triggers Fangfare -> Lance De Lion/Dense Thunder/Literally any move. Teleporting behind someone is good for rogues, yes, but when it's involuntary and not your turn, it really isn't. Think about team fights, too. Teleporting across the map to have all your 10 def 9 res 800 HP body crushed under the combined weight of 4 people, because you teleported across the map behind someone who was next to their teammates.

You'd only be able to do what you proposed if their last action triggered the teleport and it's a 1v1. It's inconsistently a benefit and inconsistently a death sentence. Flottement in exchange for more DR? I'll take that, for sure. Flottement is annoying to deal with on Duelists as it can step them out of range of your attacks.

I don't know, I kinda want a dagger to keep me alive. I can manage and work around the range just fine, considering Rogue gets western wind, VA and Engineer have 1m movement, and Spellthief gets shades and blink.

---

you can just not use your multi hit.

This is my point. You are passively denying someone use a skill for fear of debuffing themselves. Not ideal. You may wonder, "but jam you said multihits counter Body of Isesip and Snake Dancer!! isn't that the same thing???" Well, I use Body of Isesip, someone thousand stabs me and gets rid of it. 3M wasted, shouldn't have done that. An error on my part, but they're using a spear and they're a soldier (or DH), so they can do that. They have that counter to one of my skills.

Or I get thousand stabbed by this dude. And now they're immobilized. Haha, poggers, guess they shouldn't have, y'know, dealt damage to me in attempts to lower my HP to 0 so they win the fight. Guess they should have known I was using a Fangfare. Guess they should have more hit. That's not fun. That's not clever. That's not what the dagger should do.

As for immobilization, Anchor Edge has a 100% chance to immobilize on every crit.

On crit. You are rewarded for attacking, yes, that's my point with the hikage set, and the reason I brought it up - whereas the Fangfare you suggest rewards you for BEING hit.

As for Tsukikage, it requiring the set doesn't make sense as a counterpoint.

Bloody palms. Nullstone gauntlet. Crownbleeder. There are more strong options for your hand slot. My point is that when you use the Hikage Tsukikage set, you are fully commited to it, and all your boons come with the drawback of that commitment. By equipping a hypothetical Perdition-improved Fangfare, what commitment is there? You have a % chance to immobilize someone when you get hit. You are inflicting a very powerful debuff on someone in response to them performing the main objective in a fight.

You missed my point about hitting people, too. Apologies, I should've worded it better. If I can't hit someone with Fangfare, but they can hit me? I have a massive benefit regardless because hitting me runs the risk of debuffing them. Even though I, by all means - out ranged, out played, and with nothing I can do - should be disadvantaged, I am not.


I'll drop it after this because it seems like this might go on forever. You suggestion can have enough merit if you limit the effect only to enemies within 1 or 2 range, but even then the fundamental flaws are still present.

[Perdition]

Okay so you’re saying the issue is punishing someone for trying to do the main objective in a fight is bad. How is that any different than how the weapon is now, except just for basic attacks? I tried to hit this guy, he dodged and I got immobilized for it. I got punished for trying to hit him. The main objective of the battle. There’s literally no difference. As for the hand slots you listed, more often than not you’re using two weapons with a dagger. Even if you weren’t, it hardly seems like a mark against the idea.

In regard to passively denying someone using skills, that was literally covered by what I said. If someone is packing retaliation in some form, you passively discourage them to not use multiple hit techniques because the retaliation is much more punishing. You keep going back to thousand stab as if it being suboptimal to use in this specific situation matters.

Man, thousand stab sucks here. It’s a good thing I have 5 other auto hits I can use anyway. The same way you wouldn’t blindly rapid kick a mirrored shield user if you know they have it. The same way a spirit mirror passively discourages you from hitting with the projectile you want to get rid of the debuff. There’s so many ways to play around this iteration of Fangfare that multi hit auto hits having a higher chance of proccing it is irrelevant. If you’re using multi round guns against a fangfare user you’re guaranteeing they teleport behind you if they dodge as it stands now. But in this case, your gun is always multi hit. You can’t even choose a different auto hit. Does that make Fangfare broken too?

Oh. And think about team fights too. Let’s say you dodge a ranger using current fang fare and teleport behind them across the map because you dodged their arrow. That sure sounds like a shitty position to me. But wait; that’s something that can still currently happen with Fangfare.

Everything you’re bringing up is an “issue” that is still present. Man, this Fangfare user dodged my basic and teleported behind me and immobilized me. I guess I shouldn’t have tried to put his HP to 0. I guess I should have built more hit. Everything you said applies to Fangfare as it currently exists but solely for basic attacks.

The difference is that effects like this for basic attacks are worthless. Hit vs evade is usually one sided. You usually either dodge everything they throw because you evade wall them or they have enough hit to make your evade irrelevant. If you can already dodge all basic attacks thrown at you, then you’ve already won. That on evade effect you have is just win more. Likewise if they can hit you consistently then you may as well not even have the effect.

But yes, I guess the above issues you listed should only apply to basic attacks. Suddenly those issues are glaring if the same exact ones are applied to auto hits.

[Snake]

Just a major scaling buff should be enough.