[Miller]

While I did focus on the numbers previously, I still believe that this system is very polarizing and forces people to stack hit to an absurd degree or risk their damage being potentially nullified by RNG; much like how people complained endlessly about lucky vorpals nullifying most of their defensive stat investment from a lucky 10% chance. I agree that making changes and trying to fix up this system is just slapping a band-aid and praying the core fundamental issue of being denied most of your damage goes away somehow. With that said, since I personally didn't really go into much detail in my initial point, I'd like to elaborate on my personal thoughts a bit more.

Glancing Blows is a flawed system as it stands, while it current serves as an 'in-between' for a full evasion system and our previous evasion system, right now it has a strong issue with:
A) The probability of getting a glancing hit is absurd as illustrated by one of my previous posts where you can refer to a small probability chart. You need at least 85% hit to get anywhere.
B) It also works on basic hits where the old system previously did not.
C) It denies a bunch of on-hits and inflicts for the cost of a single stat + torso equipment item, including basic hits which already go through a critical check and hit check at the same time.
D) With full evasion on the table, it forces everyone to play into it; which encourages all builds to stack hit via class bonuses and run enchantments like Blessed or Bloodhunt.
E) Blind as a status is absurdly oppressive as it allows even tanks with zero celerity investment to have a 44% chance to at least get a glancing blow provided they're able to inflict the status to begin with.
F) With full evasion on the table, it requires a bias towards hit to be remotely fair.

This is not accounting for issues that exist as a result of the system (Evasion ignoring skills are among one of said issues)

Assuming full evasion stays for some reason (I don't think it should), steps to improve this system would be:
For A) + B), If you land your first hit, a check for glancing is not applied. (This makes the probability for glancing be accurate on hit forecast.)
C) Change it so glancing blows add a bonus equal to your Scaled CEL (Or Scaled CEL / 2) to Status Resistance rather than flat out deny the infliction from occuring.
E) Revert to the old Blind system and adjust the values according to the new system.


Ideally, I'd personally like for the full evasion system to revert to the old evasion system.
My reasoning and desires for such is that:
1) The old system's concept allowed for DR against autohits while a chance for full on evasion towards basic hits, making it so only those who chose to be a basic hitter would have to play the hit/evasion game.
2) With this previous system, we could add a bias towards evasion when it comes to autohits and increase the DR provided by evasion. (45 ~ 50% DR would be ideal)
3) It wouldn't be mandatory to play into since full evasion would no longer be on the table for those who were previously utilizing autohits.
4) Allow for evasion procs to boost status resistance towards applicable inflicts and proc on-miss effects such as Brain Freeze and Empty Pockets.

[Shujin]

Yeah I can see how its not fun to play with or against. Even if the balance is 'fair'

Maybe just:
-Remove full evasion
-Keep two rolls, however change how it works:
-1st roll If hit=No second roll, you hit.
-1st roll a miss, second roll a hit= Old system 30%DR
-2misses 50 or 60% DR
-Effect still apply, maybe at reduced rate at two misses
-Change how Evasion ignoreing skills work, in the way that they get a garunteed 2ed roll hit. (so max damage reduction is 30% on those)

*shrug* obviously still needs to revisit the actual hit versus evade numbers but this way hit chance is "true" and only really high dodgers get the second (Since its the same probability thing we have right now only backwards) dodge as a extra.

I think that be still an improvement to the old system, while not being as opressive and one sided as the current.

[Kameron8]

...omitted for brevity...

Glancing Blows is a flawed system as it stands, while it current serves as an 'in-between' for a full evasion system and our previous evasion system, right now it has a strong issue with:

A) The probability of getting a glancing hit is absurd as illustrated by one of my previous posts where you can refer to a small probability chart. You need at least 85% hit to get anywhere.

...omitted for brevity...

E) Blind as a status is absurdly oppressive as it allows even tanks with zero celerity investment to have a 44% chance to at least get a glancing blow provided they're able to inflict the status to begin with.

I echo Miller's sentiments.  Though it's pointless for me to reiterate a post verbatim, I will at least mention two things since they are the points I feel most strongly about.  Having to land two consecutive hits to prevent a Glancing Blow and accomplish something meaningful feels bad, and the way Blind plays with this glancing system feels worse -- especially when it's against a full tank.

[Snake]

I think most of us are in agreement that "First Glancing check hit = full hit" is the most agreeable solution for that problem in particular. The second is how much Glancing Blows reduce, on top of behaving like a full evasion.

If those two are implemented, it'll probably make things more cool.

Blind should also die in a ditch, or get a Status Immunity like knock down does. At the very -least-, dude.

As for the bunch of you who are still insisting on reverting. That won't happen. Bug Fixes were done on top of the following updates. That means if he is to roll everything back a shit ton of other bugs will appear in regards to it. So if you wanna contribute, find a fun middle point of what is 'fun' or not for everyone instead of putting a damper on the progress.

The pain of change was going to be inevitable, but the suffering imo is 1000% optional. Suck up the tears and march ahead.

[sadbot]

The option of reversion was voiced as on the table from the get go, and I see no reason why it wouldn't still be an option. Yes it's a lot of work, but so is everything to do with this rework. It's a rework, it comes with the territory.

I'm glad to see people having similar opinions and suggestions here. I think that the fun middle ground that a lot of people are aiming for and suggesting towards here is actually a better old system that makes use of much of the surrounding changes of the new one, just without the full dodge on autohits.

[Miller]

As for the bunch of you who are still insisting on reverting. That won't happen. Bug Fixes were done on top of the following updates. That means if he is to roll everything back a shit ton of other bugs will appear in regards to it. So if you wanna contribute, find a fun middle point of what is 'fun' or not for everyone instead of putting a damper on the progress.

The pain of change was going to be inevitable, but the suffering imo is 1000% optional. Suck up the tears and march ahead.

We were told beforehand that Dev made sure that these changes could be reverted if necessary, chill out. If it's somehow as hard as you say to revert changes, the call to do so must be done sooner rather than later regardless. That said, most BYOND environments contain different parts of coding in separate files, so we'd likely have to worry about fixes pertaining to the files changed by the update only.



We can easily take aspects that we like about the current system and the previous and create an in-between that's more enjoyable for everyone.

[WaifuApple]

Didn't he also say that he implemented the new systems in a way that left the old intact, too? I mean that's right there, too, in the screenshot. If he's monitoring and seeing how it's supposed to go, honestly it's very unlikely that there is literally no going back.

I'd be overall disappointed if the option wasn't there, if the only way to truly test the system was by the point you can't even change it anymore. That's just bad practice, honestly.

[RedtailPinny]

Personally, I feel that we should try and make adjustments with the current system rather than immediately run towards the "revert everything" option, even if Dev said that was still going to be an option.

Making it so Glancing Blows only rolls for a second check if the first attack misses sounds okay to me. As it is now, Glancing Blows is just global Cobra but with 60% DR instead of full dodge. So if attack 1 hits = you do full damage.

But at the same time, if we do that, then something has to be done with how easy it is to stack hitrate versus dodge, otherwise we'll just have the same exact situation we have now where dodge is so good that it's the weakest defensive option since everyone will just stack hitrate to the sky, or debuff evasion to nothing.

Blind also needs a Status Immunity, similar to Frozen, Immobilize, Knockdown, etc. It's oppressive enough in this new system that TANKS with zero evasion are using it to stack 60% glancing blows DR on top of their 40-50% from def/res alone. If it were up to me, I'd also remove blind from Forgrint's Fallenharn, since in my opinion wielding a weapon that grants you +5 skill slots (with the right talents), that counts as a tome, and can turn into a spear (meaning can be used easily with certain class combinations) shouldn't also have an easy access 3m AoE blind. Yes, it now has to go through glancing blows and get a clean hit to inflict but look back at the first point: making it easier to get clean hits on people. Shine sword and shine knighting, while also oppressive, is a str/fai scaling sword that can't be used as a casting tool for anything, that requires you to spend 6m to invoke, opening you up to attack. Plus, it counts as a buff, so it can be dispelled by multiple things.


TL;DR blind and glancing blows need to be looked at, and I think tweaking them rather than outright reverting everything is the way to go.

[Illumi]

I pretty much agree with most, if not all of Miller's points.
I've said from the start the way this is implemented just isn't fun.

Even if it got to the point of being more 'balanced' it'd still have some frustration attached to it, I feel.
I lean more towards reverting some of this big problems myself, but am willing to agree some change may make certain parts at least feel much better, even if the previous system felt much better, and much more balanced.
But as it is it's a struggle to have any fun in the combat. PvE, and especially a struggle in PvP.

[Snake]

Frustration goes away with getting used to it, is all I believe. We had this happen several times whenever any big changes were pushed through, and over time most of the fun things got nerfed or rebalanced. That's always been our way to do things and honestly, it's the way that works the most.

And yes, tbh if both of the major issues stated are addressed (blind and glancing blows), we can see the state of the game from there, and then tackle the problems that only get amplified by the default. (Such as how base hit vastly surpasses evade stacking, and only Rogue or Boxer are ever allowed to reliably dodge things)

This amount of work done that could've been on making our Main Scenario Quest continuation shouldn't be dismissed just because some people can't be patient until this is put at a better spot. Tis all I believe, of course. My own opinion.

For me this is a bumpy ride that everyone's getting nauseated for having a weak stomach, in alternate words.

Have faith in Dev, dudes. Better late than never.