[sadbot]

I think the HP penalty would be a great idea. I've always thought that summoners (And some engineers too) are just insane in 1v1, and have just been slept on due to being pretty balanced in team fights. On the other hand, I've always thought that making their youkai just go down with them would make them kind of weak and make rushing down the summoner very exploitable for aggressive builds. A heavy youkai HP penalty when the summoner goes down seems like a really solid idea to tone them down a little and give them more of a reliable answer than just the fairly rare and underused youkai hate skills and equipment.

I don't think the other two options really compare. Many summoners can have a ridiculous amount of fp to the point that they just wouldn't care about an upkeep cost penalty, and it also just kind of encourages you to abuse youkai's lacking move and just kite them until they poof after beating the summoner if you're in a tough spot rather than finishing the fight with an advantage due to their HP loss. On top of that, I always find that the way things tend to play out is that you either beat all the youkai and then get easily finished off by the summoner, or vice versa. A large HP penalty to youkai on summoner KO has an immediate impact for the player that succeeded in taking them down and gives them a chance to finish off the youkai, whereas an increased upkeep cost changes absolutely nothing unless the summoner is already only one or two increased upkeep ticks away from running dry anyways, which I can safely say is pretty much never the case.

[Snake]

FP drain is very unreliable, I'd probably just go with Collector's own idea and make it so they get unsummoned on the next round due to "lack of Focus".

Another wild idea would make it so Summoner (Base Class) has an innate that, upon defeat, they recover 2% of their maximum HP/FP while unsummoning each of their active Youkai and putting them on a permanent (or lenghty 5 round) lockdown.

Priest's Shine Knights can afford staying since they're a one-time deal after a massive invocation and only limited to 2 at a time, but I think their Total Control should be disabled so they become dumb and berserking while the Priest is out cold.

Engineer Bots should stay as they are, since it's in their gameplay (Medicopter) to actually save the day by stalling anyway. Plus, they don't have the same potency as a dang Suzaku or Seiryuu.
Don't cost as little to be put out, as in can't be active more than 1 at a time to a maximum of 4, and a total of 200 FP cost vs a Summoner's 5+.

Honestly, you'd only ever be finished off by a Railgan if you're too far away form it, you'd only ever be finished off by a Turret if you're a donkey, you'd never be finished off by Metalaegis and Medicopter's peashooters that never got rebalanced with the updates to scaling. Case closed there, lmao.

[HaTeD]

hard disagree on emgimeer being left as is. they dont drain anything after the initial summon and give fp back in the form of a buff to be used to RESUMMON A BRAND NEW ONE at a lower cost.

[Autumn]

hard disagree on emgimeer being left as is. they dont drain anything after the initial summon and give fp back in the form of a buff to be used to RESUMMON A BRAND NEW ONE at a lower cost.

Engineer bots have a huge up front cost, and the reduction in FP Cost to the next engineer bot is only obtained by actually walking over the scrap that is dropped on the ground, which is a further momentum investment.

Engineer's robots are fine by themselves, the FP costs are harsh but manageable, instead the up front strength of engineer's bots comes from the ridiculous interaction with Destiny and stat hard-caps past lvl 60. Seriously, Metalaegis has something like 3000-4000 effective health.

Back on topic with the thread, I will still stand by my previous post in that summons remaining after the summoner's death is pretty much thematic to them at this point, and should continue to remain their strong point, I will just very much re-state that FP Regeneration is halted upon death, severely chipping away at a Summoner's pool over time, unless of course they are not summoning as many youkai, leading into my next point about Bonders.

This becomes less of an issue for bonders who have less FP consumption thanks to Parted Pain and more powerful individual youkai, so at the very least Parted Pain should be removed from youkai upon the summoner's death, both to make it possible for them to KO an opponent and to increase the FP Drain again.

[Snake]

:thinking:

Well, I'm dumb for forgetting that one fact. Yeah sure, if anything give that a first attempt on testing phases to see if it fixes the issue.

Either that, or make the FP consumption scale to the summoner's FP in a sense, by getting a small percentage penalty per Youkai alive and out, or whatever. It DOES need to be significant, or else the point of a Youkai over-living its master and cheesing up an easy win, as if they were not cheap enough with swarm or hit-and-run tactics, will make this thread's point moot.

What's upsetting is going through the grinder that is a Priest or Black Knight summoner, be at red HP, just to still need to worry about additional adds that'll likely guarantee victory anyway because they behave as if the summoner is still alive and well.

But yeah, for real and maybe as a fix, Parted Pain should be gone or ignore the no-damage cap when the Bonder is dead.

[HaTeD]

id like to point out that the issue is youkai just being extras out on the field, lest theyre oni or suzaku, or even seiryuu with buff still up? theyre not really effective. youkai as a whole rn aren't effective if you have even like 140 evade compared to some others 200, which at that point theyre not hitting anything. much less pressure than they used to have and only really effective on non cel users. going forward with the intention to correct other youkai issues like this, i dont really disagree, again, with youkai draining harder if the summoner is incapacitated.

[Raigen.Convict]

I'm not gonna get into the unrelated debate of youkai being bad right now... I am in full agreement of that if the summoner falls, so too should the youkai... I admit I've cheesed out so many fights because I go down and then people get beaned by a youkai last moment, then I'm made to feel bad for winning... And I can imagine how that feels going against them... I support this change of youkai dissapearing once the summoner is down at 0 hp with no revives.

[Shujin]

Increased FP upkeep costs if they are further away?

I think thats actually a decent solution to the situations and the exploits with it, without totally killing it.

[FaeLenx]

hard disagree on emgimeer being left as is. they dont drain anything after the initial summon and give fp back in the form of a buff to be used to RESUMMON A BRAND NEW ONE at a lower cost.

Summoners have a lot of skills that boost their FP regen.

Engineer bots, on the other hand, require you to be destiny rogue to even be effective. I've yet to see a non-destiny engineer build that could throw a bot out on the field without it being an entire waste of 3 momentum and 50 focus. The strongest focus regen in the rogue tree is Spellthief's blue steal. If anything, the change to engineer would need to be making it so that destiny was no longer necessary to make them even worth the investment. 

Considering you can be a summoner of any type with any other class with their own FP regeneration engines on top of summoner's own innate boosts, the game isn't nearly the same for them. Add on the fact that youkai have larger effective threat ranges, mobility options, and more utility in them than easily kited bots and you'll realize that they're not at all similar.

And getting the wreckage bonus is worth so little in the long run that I have never once picked them up on my character that mains engineer. They run a Kirosh because fire tiles used to be OP as fuck, and I just never did change that. 3 momentum to get an effective 25 FP back is actually worse than any other focus generating option and lower than what should be the baseline standard of blue pots.

Regardless, if you feel like they need a balance adjustment, make a new thread for it. It has nothing to do with summoner as the mechanics for either classes are vastly different.

Engineer's robots are fine by themselves, the FP costs are harsh but manageable, instead the up front strength of engineer's bots comes from the ridiculous interaction with Destiny and stat hard-caps past lvl 60. Seriously, Metalaegis has something like 3000-4000 effective health.

You're at about twice their effective health, actually. And I mean with perfect materials and a maxed leveled destiny metalaegis.

[adamkad1]

Also youkai are kinda pain since unlike other summons, they got their own hp that ya need to go to inn to heal because they dont benefit from food or stuff. Pain.