02-16-2022, 02:42 AM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2022, 03:17 AM by K Peculier.)
Alright folks with the announcement of a chunky bit of content on the horizon, there has clearly been a lot of speculation and discussions made informally here and there and each player has their own valuable take and opinion.
As there hasn't been any official rules made just yet differing from what we already have on our base continents.
Perhaps there should be for an overall more unique experience to breathe some fresh air on our setting?
This thread will still be fairly casual as an open discussion with the community on how they would like to see the roleplay setting enforced on Korvara (if at all) so that in the near future the GM team and Dev can gauge how things could go forward.
I'll start up our open discussion by bringing up three main points I want a handle on. If you've already discussed these points to some degree on another platform feel free to mirror your thoughts here.
1. PvP Prevalance - How should PvP be treated in Korvara when it comes to contesting points of authority (i.e. territory/leadership roles/IC power levels)
2. OOC Grind Races - Assuming there's nothing to stop players from tagging themselves as (OOC) and choosing a spot to grind levels/items do we want to put a rule to stop this and get players to focus on roleplay in their perspective regions?
3. Travelling - Assuming there's no real barrier to stopping players from just casually running everywhere in a minute. Should there be any rules to a player zipping back and forth each city/area without any limits?
Regarding my own personal take on these:
1. Assuming there's no caps on levels and every promotion class will be easily available, I think the current powerful metas already tried, tested and true will be mimicked and abused here so it will be very sketchy to have PvP battles always be the deciding factor for conflicts. As most people don't intend to roleplay a character that is 'weak' or to take their time with a natural levelling process IC for fear of being left behind, I believe that many races and class combinations will be highly similar to get an 'edge' on everyone else who chooses not to follow the trends.
1a. That said without any mechanical factors to limit how strong builds can and will be it feels like we may be tumbled towards combat-roleplay more than anything if players don't consent to fighting each other in PvP in conflicts when one clearly has a finished/tested build already i.e (Level 60 Promo Classes/Fully Geared) versus someone who does not.
1b. As a 'solution' I would personally prefer to have more powerful promotion classes balance-wise in the scheme of PvP to be locked behind GMs/Eventmins to add rarity and meaning to them. I'm certain a majority of our veteran players will have a very good idea on knowing which ones I mean.
Then again I know people don't like being locked out of things and can be very shy when engaging with GMs and Eventmins which begs the questions that maybe Korvara may not be your cup of tea if it becomes more limited with classes for the sake of roleplay and setting.
2. Not much to say about this. I rather people not do this and take their time with the world that the mappers and Dev worked so hard on, keeping different areas fresh and new to an IC perspective as your characters travel and learn about different dangers and mysteries naturally. Even if an official rule was made for this, I don't think its feasible for GM's to monitor if people decide to do this at ungodly hours or expect players to snitch on each other.
3. I would prefer there be some sort of system to prevent players from being everywhere at once in the span of few a minutes. Again I would like to give more credit to the mappers and Dev for working hard on these areas and the lore that they embody. Players steamrolling through each city based on trends and activity can ruin that vibe. It would also give far more weight to where you are and what you can do to liven up the setting.
Those are my hot takes friends. Feel free to expand on them or argue the opposite if you'd like.
02-16-2022, 05:57 AM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2022, 06:58 AM by FaeLenx.)
(02-16-2022, 05:35 AM)Tana Wrote: I think a lot of races and classes, actually, should be locked on Korvara. No BKs, no post-enlightenment god-touched races, no engineers, no MGs, etc. etc. - A harder stance than most would agree with, I am sure, but it'd strange to have a small isolated land swamped with strange races and recent powers/technologies.
There's nothing to say that Korvara will be regressive, and I would rather that there is more content in this update rather than less. If you took out every class/race that has lore ties in to the mainland, you'd also lose Demon Hunter, Summoners, Kensei, Firebird, Verglas, Curate, and rune mage on top of BK and Engineer. You could make an argument to axe just about any class from the new roster, and they all have the same flaw. You're not adhering to the lore when you take a class out, you're making the lore. Right now, what is or isn't in this new place is malleable, and what's 'strange' really just does depend on what people end up deciding should be strange in these formative years for it. Magic guns could end up being some Geladyne invention or something plundered out of the ruins, leading to technomagic stuff being even more arcane and weird to the people who find and use it.
Whatever's added or kept will say a lot about the lore, and a lot of the lore is kept intentionally vague just to allow these kinds of things to happen. I'd rather not make an opportunity to shoot the new project in the foot by offering a hilariously small fraction of what SL2 already offers but with a new paint job.
As far as everything else said in the original post? I think that most of this OOC grindset and everything is unavoidable. I would rather not implement rules to hurt the mega-chad grinders that are going to just hurt the solo players who are just trying to vibe and chill even more. Rather than try to make PVP mandatory and expected across all of Korvara, I would rather than PVP became something for contested events or player started opportunities. Example as an old idea for an older game that worked out:
Players could start excursions. These would put them on a special map for around thirty minutes to an hour, and let them RP. If another group wanted to, they could attempt to contest their excursion. If nobody contested the excursion, the group to start it would get a reward. If someone did contest the excursion, it would result in a fight. The winner gets a greater reward than if the excursion went untested (to make a PVP battle an actual opportunity rather than a spite move) and the loser gets a smaller reward but still something. There could only be so many of these a day, either tied to factions or tied to areas. You'd have your opportunity for PVP to be a thing that is rewarded, player and character conflict could exist and be rewarded, but instead of it being something that could potentially interrupt someone's game experience it's just an opt-in event.
Mechanically incentivized interactions and minigames like this just add up to less salt in the long run because at least it's optional yet still engaging.
Quote:1b. As a 'solution' I would personally prefer to have more powerful promotion classes balance-wise in the scheme of PvP to be locked behind GMs/Eventmins to add rarity and meaning to them. I'm certain a majority of our veteran players will have a very good idea on knowing which ones I mean.
Then again I know people don't like being locked out of things and can be very shy when engaging with GMs and Eventmins which begs the questions that maybe Korvara may not be your cup of tea if it becomes more limited with classes for the sake of roleplay and setting.
I'd rather not have to compile logs to prove to a stranger that I've met some arbitrary and unexplained quota of using the words 'Black Knight-esque' in my RP posts to be awarded the chance to finish a build. App processes for necessary stuff just lead to extremely, heinously bad RP.
02-16-2022, 07:07 AM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2022, 07:09 AM by Sawrock.
Edit Reason: This is not sarcasm. I want to fight. I want tension. I WANT CONSEQUENCES AND I WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE EAGER TO HUNT ME DOWN
)
if someone doesn't try to kill my bandit within the first week of RP through high-octane PVP gankfests then I'm going to cry
hello. its me. person who lurks every 2 months at a time.
korvara is interesting and a entirely different dlcish approach to sl2 it seems.
on the subject of classes & the power associated with them.
yes. they probably should be restricted in some sense.
why?
pvp is going to be a seemingly core part of korvara and being even remotely proficient in pvp on this game is a balance of using certain classes and spending hours minmaxing equipment, class combos and/or a cheese combo or two.
it sucks.
however.
in that sense, they would just go for it anyways.
i don't know what prevents someone from going for their standard class combo even if they do have to put forth a application.
if anything, it'll probably just make those classes even more absurd due to rarity as well as making the pvp gap more extreme because the 'good cookies' will have the hyper death class combo
new players coming in and just getting steamrolled would also be a issue, because they wouldn't have access to anything atop of the immense skill floor SL2 innately has.
but i do think locking promos is the lesser of 2 evils. but i think it should be literally all promos locked and just... be unlocked with roleplay xp requirements instead as that requires interaction, some sort of 'existence' before you're instantly a black knight with intense magical powers.
on the topic of PVP, alternatively:
look towards alternative options of gameplay. pvp is only so rewarding because it's leant into so much as something that 'must occur'.
two sides wanna battle? Fae's idea on excursions isn't a bad idea.
games of chance, roleplaying something out with EC diplomats or soldiers.
pretend war games between two groups involving EC's; simply have dice, a few usable skills and such factor in if you want.
don't explicitly reward the 'winner' of something, give lesser rewards to losers; that's the main issue with competitive pvp.
tldr;
locking off promos will just cause people to flock to the next best combo or for 2-3 ppl to have god-tier death builds above everyone.
pvp is only encouraged when people begin going 'but I HAVE TO FOR My HOnoR' so just like... d-don't...make it hyper important but still semi-important? have alternative things or activities that tie into the deciding factor of something with pvp/pve being one of them. e.g. win pvp but lose 2 other 'activities' and still lose the 'battle' or whatever.
essentially, pvp shouldn't decide everything but power begets power so. we'll see.
on the topic of 2
(aka ooc grind/super grinding)
this is just a visual of people despising lower level gameplay honestly. being below level 40 with no promo classes and no gear *sucks* due to the various stat taxs/stat 'floors' needed to 'function' in reasonable ways. the only good recommendation to have here would be roleplay xp actually be worth a damn instead of just grinding in random spot number 4 for 20x the gains in 1/4th the time. that or just have roleplay xp be the only way to level with gear/money coming from monsters... haha?
(please note I barely have half of a brain cell to rub against itself this is probably a bad idea)
on the topic of 3
(aka the 'people shouldn't be doing everything everywhere)
the borders to each zone should likely be locked off until each zone gets 'stable' in people interacting and socializing and the whole social ladder/military/leadership stuff.
so the four places actually stay separate until needed.
setting up people icly at border 'checkpoints' could be an interesting play towards allowing bits of pvp that aren't super important but also actually meaning something ic(hopefully) if someone wants to illegally cross/etc. not really sure how this could be done without people just...walking past though so lol.
setting up some sort of official trading/diplomacy/trade rp between cities, people finding legitimate reasons to pass through borders (with a logbook kept or something so some guy cant just go through 50 times a day) with little ooc rules or ic restrictions based on whos coming/going where
but ultimately locking stuff off for a bit, forbidding ooc tags, and some sort of border patrol could be healthyish.
tldr
embrace rp
embrace monkey
reject humanity
reject it all
why did i write a brick wall im going back to my dungeon for another 4 months
this is why i lurk
So, just to make sure my two cents is heard, since KPec was kind enough to give us a thread instead of mercilessly screaming over eachother in dev-discussion. Dorime.
On first, I think that limiting everything to PVP would be a step in the stupid direction.
SL2 has a lot to do with freedom, compared to practically every other BYOND RP game. You have the freedom to level, or not level. To play every few days or play every day, with no negatives to doing so (other than missing out on some things). To PVP, or not PVP. I think that this is critical to keeping SL2 a wonderful change of pace from other RP games like Spires or Eternia. If it was forced, then you'd alienate the LARGE (but not exactly vocal) playerbase like myself who HATE doing PVP in regards to a life-or-death scenario where I didn't get the choice to make it that way.
Just to clarify what I mean: if I want to life-or-death PVP against an Eventmin during their events? Fair. If I choose to do that in RP? Fair. If I HAVE to do that and I don't get to pick? Then there's a lack of freedom there, the thing that kept me coming back to SL2 for nine years now.
I don't understand the building process at a lot of fundamental points, and often I have to look for others to create something for me. Numbers go over my head entirely, and I can seriously not force my brain to learn them. It just doesn't click at all. So when I open the build calculator, I have no clue at ALL what I'm doing. Would it really be fair to someone - not even just me - who can't build, or prioritizes the freedom of RP over a mechanical build, to be forcibly and VIOLENTLY ganked in a PVP battle against some powergaming player with too much time on their hands to create a painstakingly crafted doomwall? You're basically flaunting your PVP build on someone just for the fun of it, at that point.
While, of course, you can't *force* death on someone anyways, I think that most parties can be mature enough to not force PVP down someone's throat either. I know a lot of people are more than willing to RP with dice, or I even know a good chunk of people that'd actually fairly RP battle without dice. I actually -love- doing this, it just comes to knowing your characters weaknesses and actually RPing them, which I know in theory is great, but a lot of players fear someone just godmodding - which is against the rules anyways, and should probably be thrown at a GM if it happens.
I simply think on that front that people should be able to mediate between themselves to pick what the best option is between their character. SL2, at it's core, is a roleplay "mandatory" game. People should, after this long since the game's original launch, know other ways to settle a conflict without a PVP battle to determine who's cooler.
On second, while I'd LOVE to have Korvana be a totally IC enviroment where all grinding must be done ICly, I do agree with Tana that in the end, OOC grinding is a necessary evil for some people's IC. Though, there are a multitude of RP reasons why your grizzled veteran can be grinding. Retirement and coming back out, making sure they're not getting rusty, practice in general, that kinda thing. I think it just takes some extra thought that most people don't give because they can just OOCly grind. That's all I can really say about it, because in the end I personally don't care either way - I just think it's gonna be annoying and boring that a large chuck of the Korvana playerbase at launch will be OOCly grinding while I just wan RP...
But I'm also not making a character that needs an immediate build or levels to escape the powercreep, so that's probably a factor.
On third, I think that (since there's no overworld like in Sigrogana) that travel... is very complicated. Obviously, you don't want to make a whole day's worth a travel be an OOC week. But, clearly, there should be time invested into the travel due to the scope. The first solution that comes to my head is to limit the amount of travel you can do - put a five minute timer on every cell change, or something like that... but I have no idea how Korvana is mapped, despite being friends with one of the core mappers (Which - good, even though I love learning about the workings of the game, that'd probably get her in trouble), so I can't even say how pheasable that'd be to do, lest Dev throw in some invisible walls (which ARE possible for sure), or if that would even be a good idea in practice.
I think that regardless, at least in the first stage of a character, don't restrict travel. Unless Dev is throwing us in multiple spawnpoints for Korvana, we'd need to very quickly travel over to wherever our character lives FROM the spawnpoint. If we all spawned in front of Telegrad, or something, then that'd be a giant clusterfuck of players just randomly in Telegrad, without being able to get to the other three factions where they -should- be.
On the other point, and another one I -really- want to bring up also...
In terms of classes, I think that a lot of them you could straight up find lore for in Korvana, rather than locking them away:
Arbalest: I'm just using a heavy grand bow to shoot a sword, man.
Magic Gunner: I just enchanted my shells, and they carry my focus. I'm basically a wizard with a gun, here.
Ranger: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Monk: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Boxer: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Lantern Bearer: I mean, I'm sure elemental beings would exist in Korvana. Otherwise, it's just another spell-casting class.
Priest: I'm just a healer, you should really just relax.
Aquamancer: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Engineer: Free game, anybody could learn this... as long as Korvana isn't full of cavemen with no technology... but doesn't the Korvana lore we know already say they aren't?
Void Assassin: Void isn't religion, it exists everywhere.
Spellthief: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Ghost: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Kensei: ... It's just a funny katana class - and really, do you even need to ICly use a katana for it? No.
Firebird: I see Phenex doing funny fire attacks with a spear? I steal idea. I call it "Firebird". Me smart.
Black Knight: Generic funny knight class. I'm sure that these attacks are not entirely copyrighted by Chatarunga.
Tactician: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Demon Hunter: Does Kinu copyright the idea of Demon Hunter? Is she gonna sue me if I say the word "cobra"? It's just a sword/gun class.
Evoker: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Hexer: Free game, anybody could learn this.
Rune Magician: I'm sure SOMEONE in Korvana could create the concept of runes. It's basically throwing a magic letter on the ground and beyblading it. Come on.
Summoner in General: Dev said Youkai are going to exist in Korvana already, just not summoning doors. There is NO reason to ban summoner and it's promotions.
Spoilered for your convenience. The only thing I couldn't find a reason for personally was Verglas, since that was created 100% in lore by Hyoyans, and there probably isn't a real reason why it should exist in Korvana... but I'm sure someone could think of something.
I just don't think that there's a point to locking classes behind any walls at all. What you're doing at that point is creating the problem that you're trying to stop - and in direct responce to KPec's idea: because suddenly I get to be Black Knight because I went to an event set at a specific time (and likely in my time zone, if I'm EST), and now I get to beat the absolute macaroni and shit out of everyone else who has to stick to base classes because school, work, sleep, or IRL things kept them from going to the same event.
An eventmin or GM would have to constnatly be doing events to be able to keep everything fair, and I'm sure that none of them have the time to be doing this 24/7. It's not a "shy" thing as much as it is just a problem with having players that have real lives outside of a game.
The one big point I also wanted to bring up was everyone's favorite controversal topic, since it also fits into travel AND rule discussion: porting your already established characters into Korvana.
If your app gets approved, you should have to remake your character from scratch and spawn in like everyone else. You shouldn't just be teleported there.
That's it. That's the suggestion. It's fair to Korvana players, and keeps people from loading their inventory with a bunch of meta gear for their friends. No unfair advantage, just remake and go. You lost your gear in a shipwreck. Your memory of your classes are hazy. Your youkai are somewhere in the mainland.
If you want a fresh start in Korvana, you'd better dedicate to that fresh start.
AWHNEWAES there's my stream of conciousness for'ya. I ramble too, so I go back to lurkin...
(02-16-2022, 10:27 AM)Tana Wrote: No demon hunters, no classes that toy with the servants of the gods, no weebs, no lispoolians, no grenades and proliferation of karaten-brand shootbangs. No shaitan, no naga, no hyattr, no reapers, etc. etc.
Harrumph. Commit to the bit! Do the thing!! Don't tell me a land has been isolated for centuries and then have them be perfectly modern! It's like giving us Mersales only all the elves have guns and katanas!
Sounds like the only things we'd have are base classes and humans. Sounds boring.
02-16-2022, 07:08 PM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2022, 07:28 PM by Autumn.)
(02-16-2022, 02:42 AM)K Peculier Wrote: 1. PvP Prevalance - How should PvP be treated in Korvara when it comes to contesting points of authority (i.e. territory/leadership roles/IC power levels)
So this is a complicated matter, for the most part most players generally agree that when a dispute cannot be settled, pvp tends to default to most individuals, this is very rarely the case however, as most players tend to agree with eachother and try to further eachother's stories in ways that make them both feel satisfied.
This is true on Sigrogana, but I believe it will be a little bit different on Korvara, as positions of power will often by sought after by many individuals, and PvP actually excels at delivering on this narrative by presenting a hurdle that gives a way to force your way in, giving higher stake to the position and even inspiring whoever the current leader is to take more action, as to not lose their position or wrongfully sway anyone against themselves.
Should PvP be forced? That's a touchy subject, but for the most part Dev does not want to force anyone into a position where PvP is required, and if thats the rule he wants to go with, we need to respect that rule when it arises, and alternative methods of dethroning another player from a position of power must be sought out.
Should PvP determine most conflicts when allowed? Yeah I think so, when it boils down to it, 2 players who agree to this sort of thing know what they're putting up against the other, but there should be certain rules set in place that disallow a character who is irrelevant to any certain nation's leader walk up and simply challenge them, there should be rules set in place that determine the battles of important positions (Such as with multiple people needing to be involved)
For the most part however, most players are actually more than willing to step aside and let things flow through roleplay mostly, as I find when playing a guard, 90% of conflicts are just resolved through roleplay, and trusting that the person you're roleplaying with is not going to be an asshat with how they handle the situation, and that both parties are entitled to fair play.
EDIT:
Also regarding restricting classes and all that, I don't agree with that, I believe that the game is in a terrible state of balance at the moment as remnants of the most recent major balance update are still ringing through Black Knight and Evasion still. If needed be, we'll just need another balance patch, unfortunately.
Quote:2. OOC Grind Races - Assuming there's nothing to stop players from tagging themselves as (OOC) and choosing a spot to grind levels/items do we want to put a rule to stop this and get players to focus on roleplay in their perspective regions?
I believe that for Sigrogana, the world is much too peaceful as a setting and often doesn't inspire people to go IC when doing what are effectively chores when creating a character, the main state of the game as its been running for so many years now is just the end game, so you do all your tasks that lead up to an optimized character that can compete with the best of 'em or drop dead because you didn't choose to do so.
Its because of this mentality that I believe people may be hesitant to disallow the coveted OOC Tag, what some may see as a necessary evil is fair for certain character concepts such as grizzled veterans and characters that are supposed to be decently strong, but I believe that the appeal of Korvara will be the journey and not the destination, and I believe this should, at the very least, be enforced for at least the first couple of months.
It isn't fair to anyone else who isn't racing to the finish line or is adhering to their character's regional limitations (Such as with Telegrad and Geladyne) to allow people to simply waltz around with OOC tags uncontested.
Is this gonna stop people from just trying to gold split for lvl 60? No, fuck no. I can't expect the GMs to be able to enforce the rule, as well as punish people who pretend to be IC but are just grinding and avoiding as much interaction as possible.
But I do believe that creating this rule incentivizes far more people to interact and try to play the way that was intended, at least for the first couple of months anyways, before people inevitably hit 60 anyway.
Quote:3. Travelling - Assuming there's no real barrier to stopping players from just casually running everywhere in a minute. Should there be any rules to a player zipping back and forth each city/area without any limits?
So I wanna say ahead of time that this is actually taken care of in a slight way by the sheer size of the maps, not only that but they're not even close to all being flat plains, there are many mountains and bridges and rivers that need to be crossed and etched around in order to traverse, travel time is already limited in this way and will serve as a good propellant I assure you, there should also be scene locks in play on the continent already to assure that people don't just randomly interrupt certain things by gunning it down to where ever they hear trouble is afoot. But for the sake of roleplay, someone from Duyuei or Meiaquar should be able to just try and find where people are currently roleplaying at.
If travel time becomes even further of an issue, I believe that a hard limitation of adjusting player movement speed isn't a bad idea either, this is a variable that can be adjusted if needed be.
That said, I don't wanna see someone from Telegrad for instance gun it down into Geladyne to buy an item before anyone notices, so its pretty debatable.
The following 1 user Likes Autumn's post:1 user Likes Autumn's post • Sawrock
Almost all of the regional successors can be chosen with non-violent means, and honestly SHOULD be chosen non-violently to keep their theming alive. Geladyne is the big problem in that they are lore-determined to have a strict successor system where the only way to become the new Geladynian ruler is to be nominated as a successor by the old one. This is the single most difficult position to aspire towards, and it's also incredibly the opposite of autocratic which is meant to be their theme.
Similarly to the whole excursions PVP thing I suggested above, rulership transfers should be something that happen mechanically first and roleplay second rather than something that people have to determine and agree on. The only reason I don't think this will be the case is because that would be a lot of systems to introduce by the time Korvara comes out and if it's not done well and fully then we're just gonna have 4 more water sourcers on our hands.
Almost all of the regional successors can be chosen with non-violent means, and honestly SHOULD be chosen non-violently to keep their theming alive. Geladyne is the big problem in that they are lore-determined to have a strict successor system where the only way to become the new Geladynian ruler is to be nominated as a successor by the old one. This is the single most difficult position to aspire towards, and it's also incredibly the opposite of autocratic which is meant to be their theme.
Similarly to the whole excursions PVP thing I suggested above, rulership transfers should be something that happen mechanically first and roleplay second rather than something that people have to determine and agree on. The only reason I don't think this will be the case is because that would be a lot of systems to introduce by the time Korvara comes out and if it's not done well and fully then we're just gonna have 4 more water sourcers on our hands.
I acknowledge that but your thread has a slightly different topic and seems to be more of a discussion piece that I've been thinking of a good way to contribute to, while this thread is a genuine opinion collection from a GM who probably will end up influencing some of the decisions being made up and coming.
There should obviously be different methods of obtaining rulership, and in most cases it should not ever result in fighting over it, which is also why I am not overly concerned that pvp will dictate the landscape either.
I'll have a more constructive post when I think of one.
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