[TCBlade]

Hi, leader here for those who don't know (and to be fair, I don't blame you, as not everyone stays up-to-date with things outside their char's countries).  I had made a post, but I accidentally clicked off and have to retype it all, so I'll just try to go over the main points again, both for your sanity and for mine.  And before we get into it, two things.  One, this is just a penny for my thoughts; you're free to love or hate my opinion, but I'm acting mostly on what I know or was told.  Two, thank you for even taking the time to read this.  I'm thankful for even the consideration of it.

Firstly, I want to say that I don't want to flog the horse more than has been stated, but I think all parties should be open to the same level of communication and fairness.  A country shouldn't be able to just do something without fair notice to the recipients.  I'd like to think that if I amassed an army and marched on Telegrad with no notice on their ends, they'd have the right to be quite upset by matters.  Same applies here; people have lives, jobs, and responsibilities.  As Pope had stated, yes, I'm a college student.  Not a freshman; I just became a junior (going for a degree in game design and development if anyone is curious).  Anyway, I WAS under the impression things had been settled, especially after meeting with Geladyne's ambassador and being told that things were all good.  Then the second raid happened.  Then recent events that are now leading to a potential war.

Secondly, the trolling here is unacceptable.  I'm not an admin, but if I was, I'd be looking into that and if it's true, looking to crack down on that.  If everything is supposedly "100% IC," then your pet shouldn't even be allowed to spy, or if you do use it to, you shouldn't be able to use that icly.  It actually disgusts me that some people are taking advantage of it and abusing it to the point others cannot comfortably rp.  If the roles were reversed, I would expect to see anger at some of the Beggar's Hole people for what they've been doing because that's not fair in the slightest.  Y'all are better than this, and you know you are.

Lastly of my original major points, equality.  I don't believe a country should be able to just do something, such as blow up a bridge, but if someone else wants to do it, they have to go through more tape and paperwork than the country does.  I'm fine with leaders having extra powers, such as requiring a document and sufficient rp, so there's not a constant gank fest, but this isn't that. As Henrik would icly say, "It doesn't matter your nationality or race, your moral compass or family history.  At the end of the day, we all still need food and water to live, and we all have the same risk of being injured by a stray arrow hitting us.  When it comes to our roots, we're all equals."

I'll let those words hang in the air for now.  Thank you once again to whoever is behind the screen reading this.  You had to take time out of your day to do so, and that time could have been spent doing numerous other things.  And another special thank you to those who have responded and voiced their opinions on the topic; without discussion, change for the better cannot come about.

If anyone wants to discuss my point of view on things with me, or to voice their thoughts privately so we can have a personal discussion, let me know and I'll speak to you as possible. Like I said, change can't happen if no one is willing to talk things through and voice their opinions.

[Soul_Hacker]

If I might post once more, I'd like to briefly say that I do not agree with the sentiment that Beggar's Hole/Wasgow is nothing more than a 'joke' or 'meme' as some people might say; though given how the original four who created the 'Consent Bandits' as they were known had acted, I understand where the sentiment came from. However, roleplay is about progression, it is about characters changing and evolving, and this speaks true for the solitary original 'consent bandit' who has remained throughout all of this, along with the community that has built around that area in general. Calling them 'jokes' or 'memes' is reductive and downright hurtful, in my personal opinion. There has been much serious RP at the hole, be it conflict, politics, character moments- and reducing all of that to a blanket statement of 'joke characters' is not helping the discussion any.

Not only that, it's disheartening to the players who have put countless amounts of hours into roleplaying the development of this place. To have their efforts, the political meetings they themselves had to seek out due to their position, the IC mini-events to try and gain a foothold in the world, requesting a map be made, and much more, it's plain to see that plenty of people who reside there do not see this as a 'joke.'

[Taco938]

Hello

I am one of the people who founded Beggar's Hole back when we were still the consenting bandits. And I got to say, reading all of this made me feel confident in my decision in quitting the game. First I want to thank all the people who decided to participate in the faction and are trying their best to push it further than since it originally started. However, I have to correct this opinion that some people may have in regards to that what Beggar's Hole 'is'.

Everyone who says Beggar's Hole is just a meme spot with haha-funny OOC intent should really take a good hard look at the rules.

The reason Beggar's Hole exist is because we wanted to be antagonistic and not immediately killed off by the community who openly hate anything that has to do with conflict. This whole issue is a clear example of why conflict on SL2/Korvara is garbage. It is not just the rules but also the community who grew up on a game that rarely had any 'true' conflict where they were forced to accept the consequences. The fact that when the consenting bandits were still just that, the rules stated that you couldn't even rob people with permission, that was the entire joke.

There was no consequences if nobody wanted any.

That sole reason is the bane of this entire continent. Everyone can just push away from conflict or 'force' conflict by putting an app in to an admin and type out an essay about why X, Y, or Z deserves to be killed/robbed/etc. Beggar's Hole was created so that we could have a chance to be antagonistic and rise up to be more than just haha-funny people who rob with consent. Outside of the people who actively played there or aided in its initial creation have no right to say how Beggar's Hole should be seen on an OOC standpoint. Beggar's Hole wasn't created because y'all DEEMED it acceptable due to it being a meme, it was created because the community completely sucks with handling anything antagonistic or anything relating to conflict. It was a way for people who love RP but weren't used to SL2 to come together and form something that wasn't just being clique ran and one where something could actually happen on the world that was suppose to be centered on RP.

It is clear that a good amount of the community do not know how to handle it.

I don't know too much about the recent things outside of the recent activities that had occurred with the faction. I know about the odd NPC drama that had occurred, which I believe is rather stupid. NPCs should exist yes, but their roles should never be more significant than a PCs own as this world was meant to revolve you know, the actual players. Either way I can sit here and say communication is key, but that should have never been a thing that needed to be said in the first place. At the end of the day, the first major conflict that happened to Korvara after 2ish month was done by a group of people who barely or never played SL2 before and wanted something to actually come out of the game that wasn't just cuckplots and romance drama.

Take what I said as you will. I don't play the game anymore and hadn't since a bit after Beggar's Hole was formed. I saw enough and still hear enough which makes me uninterested in returning.

[TheCommonNoob]

However, one thing I do feel comfortable addressing is this point in particular, as it paints the Geladyne players involved as ignoring RP. Given I was playing the character in charge of leading both times, I'm fairly certain that we weren't given any form of indicator that someone intended to RP with/at us on our way to the Beggar's Hole. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, because we certainly would have stopped to RP if someone was there and made their intentions known. But to my knowledge, they did not.

I was the player lookout on the first wave watching over the ruin tunnels and the mountain route the first time around as both lead directly toward the area of interest. I will certainly admit that it would have been hard to notice a stray player standing in what seems to be the middle of nowhere so the lack of intention is/was my bad. I wasn't sure at the time that a LFG message saying, "There is a lookout on the mountain" would have been the solution or not. Even then, if the long route was taken I wouldn't have seen them in the first place I suppose.

At most, I saw a single LOOC message which I am unsure of was soldiers or random adventurers as I was tabbing back and forth between windows. I was not particularly keen on gluing my eyes to the screen to idly wait for an unknown amount of time to spy a contingent of soldiers to come by. But in any case, it ultimately doesn't sum up to anything in the grand scheme of things as the outcome would have been relatively the same.

Whatever happened, happened and I don't hold any ill will or strong feelings towards the matter. As long as the future pans out better for everyone involved.

[PossumParty]

I agree on what OP and most things others have said, but I saw some worrying things I want to address as a fellow player.

Everyone wanting to be around for every little thing happening is indeed a problem. The simple fact of the matter is that you will miss out on most things happening around the sim and there is nothing you can do about that. The server is on for 24 hours a day. People in different timezones exist. They have just as much or little claim to being involved in every event that occurs as the rest of you.

I don't agree with this opinion. Should Beggar's Hole people be around when Geladyne knocks on their door? Yes. Should anyone else under the sun? No. It's that simple. If you're going to roleplay with a group of people, the first thing you need to do is communicate with them, full stop. Just a little common courtesy and respect for your fellow roleplayer can go a long way and can create a better environment for both parties. I don't get why this is being hand waved as not a big deal so easily. Group A wants to approach Group B. Group A messages Group B, "Hey, we are going to be here at X time." Quick and simple message. Group B is thankful for it, is prepared mentally and can get interested people in their group ready when the time comes and gives Group A the best RP they can.

You didn't have RP before. You didn't get it afterwards. Nothing was taken from you.

They were a part of the group, weren't they? And they couldn't get to rp with their friends and instead had to watch on the sidelines as things progressed without them, simply because they were not aware of what was happening sooner. That's very sad to me.

This is thankfully not many other RP environments and, had they come up with some actual goal to keep ALL 8 people for, it would have been at most for a day unless they wanted to stay longer. There's a reason there have been so many jailbreaks in Geladyne.

Didn't Mana have their character held hostage for several OOC days? I'm certain if Geladyne captured a lot of high interest people they would have that jail guarded like crazy especially because they're so high interest. Yes, there have been jailbreaks, but.. is that seriously the best way to get out of Geladyne's jail? Nothing on Geladyne's side at all, but for them to break out themselves.. and then be in even MORE trouble with Geladyne and likely be hunted down for doing so?

What would have happened if nobody showed up or nobody responded? In Geladyne going to Beggar's Hole, Geladyne would have done nothing, gotten nothing, and really just had to walk home.

But why bank on chance when you could just simply take a few seconds to DM someone and communicate your intentions so both sides actually have good, fulfilling roleplay? It's respectful to do so too. If that happened to me, I'd be pretty stressed out and worried if people all of a sudden dropped onto my doorstep and started making demands of me with no warning at all when it simply doesn't need to be the case. And say if there was nobody around at the time they came and the soldiers spent all that time getting ready, thinking of what they were going to do and say and.. bam, nobody's there. That's just disappointing and I'd feel my time to be wasted. Yes the server is 24/7, yes we work jobs, yes, that is WHY you should inform the other parties of what is going on. I cannot hammer this point home enough. Please, let there be communication.

The place is literally named Beggar's Hole, a location picked because of its close proximity to smuggler NPCs and ramshackle appearance as far as the casual observer could determine. It's a community that exists because this overall OOC community loves memes and silly villains, because we love Black Falcons that talk about their unrequited love as they get beaten and recycled into the exact same black falcon for a later event, because we love Sawrock and his hand drawn maniacs who deliver equine fantasies into our inventories, and because we love bandits that ask for consent as a joke about the consent rules on the sim. If you would start trying to gussy up the place to be more serious so that you could win, then what even is the point? What even is the culture? Is it some anomalous, silly place where you can rob each other in the streets but for some reason merchants still want to come? Is it some place that makes a museum to a history it doesn't have? A barracks for thieves? An infirmary for- That actually is a good idea. They would probably need one.

The issue here is that you all did decide on what Beggar's Hole was going to be. In every interaction, every establishing moment, and every development it's been put forward as a silly, fun place where people can go to get rowdy and the Beggar's have their Hole. It's a vaguely lawless place with an honor of thieves sort of establishing order. It is a small place. Nobody decided what it would be but the people who went there.

Beggar's Hole exists because of themselves, the work, and the roleplay they've put in. They get to decide who they are, who they'll be and change themselves just as anyone or any group can. Did they start as smugglers and bandits? Yes. Are they trying to move from those old ways to something more upstanding, and as I see it, a home for fellow misfits who don't quite fit in other places? Yes. What community they are is what they decide to be, not others. And I don't quite understand the 'winning' part. What are they trying to win? Maybe my heart.

As far as I know, you could remedy the situation by just "emote zaps another one." like clockwork each time it appeared. Bothersome? Probably. A problem? Probably not. You're just mutually wasting each other's time with no danger presented to either side.

I don't see how that's anything but a problem. Did the player(s) in question roleplay being able to summon infinite eyeball pets from the void that they can, apparently, see and hear through? I doubt it and doubt it would be allowed. For this one I'd like a more concrete ruling on. People are going to abuse things they can, hopefully we can get a concrete ruling saying that pets should NOT be allowed to do things like this I think would be for the best. People have shown worries about having to check constantly for these things spying on them, this does not make a good roleplay environment. It's stressful and just weird. Please do not spy on other people with pets and please have respect for other people's time, they shouldn't have to worry about keeping an eye out for pets and 'zapping' them every single time they show up.

Overall, if anything can be taken away from this, I hope it's one thing that I and now many others have commented- Please communicate! It may not seem like a big deal, to just shrug it off and say 'what happens, happens'. But doing so shows respect. Respect for the other player(s), their time, and leave them less stressed out and more informed on the going ons and things that'll happen, largely creating a better experience for both parties. It solves SO many problems and creates a better atmosphere for everyone involved.

Thank you for anyone who took the time to read this. I see this has stressed out many sides, but hopefully this can be a good thing that helps create a better environment for everyone in the end. Please be respectful and I hope we can all get along together and, at the end of the day, have fun RPing together. Thank you.

[FaeLenx]

Didn't Mana have their character held hostage for several OOC days? I'm certain if Geladyne captured a lot of high interest people they would have that jail guarded like crazy especially because they're so high interest. Yes, there have been jailbreaks, but.. is that seriously the best way to get out of Geladyne's jail? Nothing on Geladyne's side at all, but for them to break out themselves.. and then be in even MORE trouble with Geladyne and likely be hunted down for doing so?

No players have the ability to hold Mana for longer than she consents to be held. I'm not sure what you want from a setting with ongoing conflict than the ability to get away from the people who wish you harm, though. Could you give a suggestion for how you think that should have ended?

[Imotepchief]

I try to avoid posting aggrevating messages on topics such as this and if aggrevation is generated based on what I say here, I do apologise, but I do have some opinions on this whole thing that I would like to air.

Firstly, in regards to scene locking.
Scene locking serves an important function, one that prevents people performing actions from being simply overwhelmed by an onslaught of their opponents or even your own allies, from running in to tip balances, but a scene lock is for situations outside of main community hubs, wilderness and the like where in a realistic ic sense, things would occur before others would be party to it. This fact doesn't apply to community hubs, such as the main towns, but by extension of that also applies to player communities like Begger's hole, who would realistically always have people present, just like a main town and as such, a scene lock isn't, in my opinion, applicable, no matter how you spin it. This is further reinforced by the fact that it is main travel route adjacent, nullifying the primary elements of scene locking.

Secondly, in regards to informing people of actions.
The whole point of any of us playing this game, sigrogana mainland or korvara, is to have fun and build an enjoyable rp experience, yet too many people commit actions with the simple intent to win. Should it be rolling up with a group of people to overwhelm opponents or making some world alteration for personal benefit, significant effort should be made to inform everyone involved, simply due to the fact that such actions should be for the intent of enhancing and furthering rp, not simply to overcome others. I believe that anything that involves large numbers of people should be fully discussed and planned out ahead of time, so that people do have a chance to be involved when it is icly appropriate, this is especially true of 'official' actions taken by any of the main cities, but should also apply to any sizeable group. We have a discord, LFG and forums, this shouldn't be a difficult ask.

Thirdly, in regards to using pets to garner information.
No, just no. The very idea that a pet kit, an item acquireable by monatary investment, that can easily hide and be anywhere the player behind them is not, is capable of relaying any information back to said player's actual character, at moments of importance, is obviously something that shouldn't be permitted, going entirely counter to establishing meaningful rp. That doesn't mean that pets shouldn't be able to travel the land and interact, but such should be limited to quirky personal rp for said pet and not hold any actual regard to their owner, such as a cat wandering the lands seeking pets or chasing a town's rat population, not to gather information upon opponents or any ic event to be then used by the person they're bound to.

Fourthly, in regards to alts.
Now, my opinion on alts has mutated over the years of playing sl2, starting out with being entirely opposed, to having a handful of my own, but such occurred because on the Sigrogana mainland, having an alt or multiple, held very little weight, any conflicting interests were things that on the grand scheme of things, barely mattered beyond whatever personal narrative you try to roll with.

However, this does not hold true with Korvara and although I understand people wanting to have multiple characters, the way in which Korvara is set up, very much leads to drastically more important conflicts of interest, where often people will have information and bias that could easily turn the tide of encounters. As such, I find alts on Korvara to be distasteful, personally, especially true if an individual holds several of them, with multiple committing to world changing events or holding positions of relative authority. Main character syndrome is often rather prevelant for such people, who will involve themselves in many aspects of importance, somewhat shoehorning others out and monopolizing the world's events, countering the more organic nature Korvara is supposed to hold and in my opinion, shouldn't be permitted.

That's all I really have to say on all this for the moment, if you took the time to read my post, thank you.

[PossumParty]

Didn't Mana have their character held hostage for several OOC days? I'm certain if Geladyne captured a lot of high interest people they would have that jail guarded like crazy especially because they're so high interest. Yes, there have been jailbreaks, but.. is that seriously the best way to get out of Geladyne's jail? Nothing on Geladyne's side at all, but for them to break out themselves.. and then be in even MORE trouble with Geladyne and likely be hunted down for doing so?

No players have the ability to hold Mana for longer than she consents to be held. I'm not sure what you want from a setting with ongoing conflict than the ability to get away from the people who wish you harm, though. Could you give a suggestion for how you think that should have ended?

I believe Mana's player likely felt a lot of pressure in the situation and wanted to amicably go along with what they were given and I also believe they are a new player. If I were new and guards of a nation wanted to arrest me and hold me for whatever undetermined amount of time, I'd hardly feel like I had any power at all to go against it or the knowledge to do so. I am not them however and I cannot speak on their behalf, just give my personal opinion on what it'd be like in their shoes. If you went to arrest me and I stated 'No, I don't consent to this arrest' - what would happen? And would that even be a good thing? I can't imagine good RP coming from that and people would likely dislike that happening. People in Geladyne can't hold anyone or do anything if someone tells them no..

I don't entirely know their situation or why they should be held, but to me, 1 or 2 OOC days is all a character should be held for, max, within reason. If the character's yknow, some crazy mass murderer or whatever, do what you gotta do. But if the character in question isn't a harm to others and other players aren't ready for a trial or whatever punishment is to be dealt, then the player and their character shouldn't be the one punished for it. It's a hard topic and I'm not smart by any means but, that is my take on it.

---

This is pretty relevant, so posting this from Mana's player with their permission. Their thoughts on what was happening and what they were feeling at the time.

[Rexan]

For the most part I've just been reading and taking notes. But one thing I actually wanted to agree with after seeing it; is the subject of alts.

Alting is fine and dandy, but for a framing of conflict-oriented RP games such as Korvara now is, more in line with the other big conflict-oriented non-wipe based conflict games of Yore, Altism is a unique problem as compared to the other games, because alting was ACTIVELY shooting yourself in the foot when that conflict came to a P-v-P head. It left your 'main' underleveled, undergeared, and whatever else. So it was something that actively worked against you.

Such is not a problem in Korvara--which is both a blessing and a curse. Blessing because,, hey, Korvara is a much slower burn of conflict and even with new rules in place I'm not expecting to see a consistent; average death rate, so of course people might want to make one or two chars to help mix things up once and a while, even I have a semi-secret alt. Curse, because of the above mentioned conflict of interest. If you have a alt on both sides--who do you support? It should be a simple question of picking one and sticking to it, but that's not always the case. To which; if there are rules or reformations to be done:

I'd suggest some level of restriction regarding Alt-involvement. At the least, in decisive moments when 'major' wars inevitably pop up in the schew of things, not to say you HAVE TO FOCUS on one single char so long as that conflict remains. But more so some measure of keeping a field level, rather then fluctuating. I'd rather not see a soldier on one side--one week, then that player's alt on the other side, the next week. Fueling this weird back and forth of fighting against yourself, but that's all I have to say on this matter, at this point. I definitely have my own feelings and thoughts in this matter, and both sides 100% have merit in some facet or another, but I'd rather see where the discussion takes it rather then firmly placing myself in any one point of view or another. Fun Game should be Fun, and as I've toted (admittedly rather soapboxy at times):

OOC Courtesy and Respect is how these games stay fun.

[FaeLenx]

Didn't Mana have their character held hostage for several OOC days? I'm certain if Geladyne captured a lot of high interest people they would have that jail guarded like crazy especially because they're so high interest. Yes, there have been jailbreaks, but.. is that seriously the best way to get out of Geladyne's jail? Nothing on Geladyne's side at all, but for them to break out themselves.. and then be in even MORE trouble with Geladyne and likely be hunted down for doing so?

No players have the ability to hold Mana for longer than she consents to be held. I'm not sure what you want from a setting with ongoing conflict than the ability to get away from the people who wish you harm, though. Could you give a suggestion for how you think that should have ended?

I believe Mana's player likely felt a lot of pressure in the situation and wanted to amicably go along with what they were given and I also believe they are a new player. If I were new and guards of a nation wanted to arrest me and hold me for whatever undetermined amount of time, I'd hardly feel like I had any power at all to go against it or the knowledge to do so. I am not them however and I cannot speak on their behalf, just give my personal opinion on what it'd be like in their shoes. If you went to arrest me and I stated 'No, I don't consent to this arrest' - what would happen? And would that even be a good thing? I can't imagine good RP coming from that and people would likely dislike that happening. People in Geladyne can't hold anyone or do anything if someone tells them no..

I don't entirely know their situation or why they should be held, but to me, 1 or 2 OOC days is all a character should be held for, max, within reason. If the character's yknow, some crazy mass murderer or whatever, do what you gotta do. But if the character in question isn't a harm to others and other players aren't ready for a trial or whatever punishment is to be dealt, then the player and their character shouldn't be the one punished for it. It's a hard topic and I'm not smart by any means but, that is my take on it.

Agreeing to something and then complaining about it is probably the exact opposite of communication. But also you didn't show me anything that said they didn't agree to it, just that... Characters wanted to kill her? So what's the relevancy of the screenshot? The exact same point I made is still the only thing about this that does matter. If she didn't want to be in jail she didn't have to be in jail.

As the rules are right now, you can just... Pick someone up and keep them for 24 hours so long as you have a reason that you can give OOC to said player that stands up to scrutiny. This isn't specific to arrest or guards. It's part of why I'm so confused as to why the consent bandit post above is complaining about the lack of ability for antagonists to do things to people. You can't steal their 50 murai, but you can still 24 hours if you can make it believable that you want to ransom them and intend to do so in that timeframe.

I'm not sure if people just aren't aware or if everyone's just arguing in bad faith.