[PossumParty]

Agreeing to something and then complaining about it is probably the exact opposite of communication. But also you didn't show me anything that said they didn't agree to it, just that... Characters wanted to kill her? So what's the relevancy of the screenshot? The exact same point I made is still the only thing about this that does matter. If she didn't want to be in jail she didn't have to be in jail.

The relevancy is the feelings of a new player and their insights on what they've gone through, how they've felt about the whole situation. If you want to completely disregard that- alright then. They likely didn't know they could even not agree to the situation and felt pressured into it. I don't think I have anything else to add here. Thank you for your time.

Sorry- had a good idea pop up, but don't want to make another post to clog up the thread. Whatever party is jailing the other person, whoever is responsible for it, should let the player know the limits of the jail time and if they even want to consent to it. I think that would help a lot in the future.

[FaeLenx]

Agreeing to something and then complaining about it is probably the exact opposite of communication. But also you didn't show me anything that said they didn't agree to it, just that... Characters wanted to kill her? So what's the relevancy of the screenshot? The exact same point I made is still the only thing about this that does matter. If she didn't want to be in jail she didn't have to be in jail.

The relevancy is the feelings of a new player and their insights on what they've gone through, how they've felt about the whole situation. If you want to completely disregard that- alright then. They likely didn't know they could even not agree to the situation and felt pressured into it. I don't think I have anything else to add here. Thank you for your time.

They didn't say they were scared or frightened or felt pressured in the picture. Just that jail RP sucks. Which it does. It's why I wouldn't agree to it.

[Neus]

I'm probably not going to be able to respond to every single point made in the thread, but I'll try my best. First of all, I'm sure everyone is aware that a character I play was the primary driving factor behind a lot of this recent conflict, so I have a share of responsibility for any parts of it that have been unsatisfactory on an OOC level. I fully admit that I could have handled it better, but I hope people understand that there is not any sort of grudge or dislike OOCly on my end - I have had a lot of fun RPing with people in BH. Any missteps I have made were purely inexperience and not expecting how things would be received and perceived.

Tax Collection
One of the points that I hear a lot is that there was no advance notice OOCly to the Beggar's Hole players about what we intended, and that if it were a nation, there would be this expectation. That is fair, and I think it's true given the reactions to the recent prison break. One of the reasons I did not feel like it was necessary, I believe, is because I knew OOCly that whatever happened wouldn't have a lasting IC impact; no one was going to get killed, BH wasn't going to get kicked out or razed to the ground, etc. I mistakenly thought that everyone would assume the same thing and be relatively chill about it, but no one else but me would have any way to know that for sure.

The second tax collection also did not have advance OOC notice. This one was perhaps a bit more negligent on my part, after seeing how the first one went, but I was also aware OOCly that BH had found out about it ICly somehow and were making preparations, so I thought it would be fine to forego it as the time approached. I think this one went better overall OOCly, too, which I was relatively happy about.

One thing I would like to comment on regarding this is that I am not 100% familiar with who everyone is IC in relation to Discords, and secondary Discord servers for certain factions/nations make it difficult to coordinate with them, or even know what they're up to. Obviously, in BH's case, they don't have private channels in the main server, nor am I trying to use this as an excuse and saying 'oh well if you guys just used the main discord then of course I would have given you more heads up' because I don't think it'd have changed anything. It's just a small point I want people to consider for the future.

Jail Breaking
I think this is something that everyone involved feels at least a little icky about, and I don't blame anyone in particular for it. I said OOCly when I was made aware of it that I thought the timing was smart (since it was meant to take place during the tax collection). I think where a lot of the negative feelings on it came from was just that it was purely an NPC affair - there wasn't any PC interaction, so some people viewed it as questionable. One of the Geladyne characters basically spends all of his time in the jail guarding it, so him being excluded (due to bad IRL timing) from a jail break was a sad moment (although them's the breaks sometimes).

For stuff like this in the future, I think we may end up requiring it to be done when there are PCs around. One concern I have about advanced OOC notice for these sort of things is that such things usually bring in the hordes, so it can make more complex or more 'well manned' than it should be. That's not me saying that it should be one way or another; just me expressing a personal concern about it.

The main point I wanted to get across is just that, if there were a PC or two around to interfere with the attempt, I think everyone would have felt a lot better about the event, both as participants or people who heard about it after the fact.

War Stuff
I have been in the process of working on a document related to this, as well as having constructive conversations with various members of the community about what things to include in it. My attention is usually split in 3-4 different directions during the day, so I haven't been able to finish it quite yet, but I intend to do so soon. When I do, I will post it for public discussion, and we can see if the community as a whole agrees with the ideas presented in it or not. I am mainly aiming for rules/guidelines that prioritize the fun/interesting parts, and that lead to as few bad feelings OOC as possible.

This will include information about NPC 'troops' and whatnot.

Beggar's Hole In General
I just want to talk a bit about how I perceive Beggar's Hole. First of all, I don't treat them or the community there as a gag, either ICly or OOCly. I have had fun with the conflict that's arisen with them. I have treated them as a serious part of the world - and ICly, the Austung has addressed their existence in ways that I feel would be appropriate for a nation to do so.

Beggar's Hole is a collection of the lawless; they don't have an army, or anything like that. Logically, when picking a fight with a nation that does, they are at a sizeable disadvantage. I would hope that everyone agrees that makes sense and should be factored in to RP appropriately. This is not to say that they couldn't potentially stand on their own, particularly with another nation's help, or that they're doomed to failure because of it.

By no means am I trying to close the door on smaller upcropping or player made towns or nations; I have very much enjoyed watching BH grow, and want to encourage people to do that sort of thing. However, I also want to respect the IC that is already there with the four nations; a new neighbor trying to build their own powerbase so close to a nation's should invite some conflict in an effort to smother it in its crib. I think there are a good number of people who realize this already; I just wanted to make it clear for the people who don't.

Basically what I'm saying is that I think it would be bad to abandon logic and suppress natural IC reactions, just to prop up a player faction that I like. Does that make sense? You can tell me if it doesn't, this whole section is basically me rambling.

---

I will now respond to some individual points I saw that I have comments on.

As a quick side note before I finish, in regards to the 'eye spies', I would like to mention that I do not enjoy the concept of a paid item that is supposedly cosmetic to be used as a way to gather information on a ICly level, mainly with how it works with the enviroment around it. While yes we can roleplay destroying them and what not, this could be simply solved by not allowing them at all and rather, utilize the player's character that would've otherwise been miles upon miles away, unable to be tracked down properly as they can quite simply unsummon their pet in a moment's notice. But that's just me.

I am in full agreement about this and will likely amend the rules to reflect it soon. The Pet Kit was always intended to just be a cute pet, not an RP advantage, and I'm not comfortable with a donation item being used in that way.

That sole reason is the bane of this entire continent. Everyone can just push away from conflict or 'force' conflict by putting an app in to an admin and type out an essay about why X, Y, or Z deserves to be killed/robbed/etc. Beggar's Hole was created so that we could have a chance to be antagonistic and rise up to be more than just haha-funny people who rob with consent.

First of all, I'm sorry that you felt the need to quit over this, rather than bring it up as a community discussion. Second, while it is true that there are still basic RP protections in place on Korvara, I think that even the first week of Korvara proves that people are willing to go along with serious consequences for RP. I'm not sure which part of the rules you dislike specifically, though.

The question is not just for us, but for others who are planning on making their own settlements:

- What do we have to do to be considered a nation?
- How to be taken more seriously in our development?

So, one thing I will say is that making a nation is hard, especially in an environment like Korvara where you have a big neighbor no matter where you go. Being recognized as a nation is almost certainly going to be an IC thing, but if you want my general opinion, and I'm sorry if this seems negative because it's not meant that way, but;

Think of it this way. What does BH have to offer that would push it beyond being a player faction? Nations, generally, have laws, exports, some form of government, things that would attract citizens (I know we all hate NPCs but please, citizens are people too) to want to live there, merchants to come peddle their wares, etc.

There are relatively small collectives of individuals who live in a mostly lawless fashion, but these are historically just tribes or barbarians, not something you'd call a nation. Just to be clear, I am not saying that BH could never become a nation or a city-state or etc. I encourage you all to pursue it as much as possible IC if that's your goal.

[the homestuck man himself]

Tax Collection
One of the points that I hear a lot is that there was no advance notice OOCly to the Beggar's Hole players about what we intended, and that if it were a nation, there would be this expectation. That is fair, and I think it's true given the reactions to the recent prison break. One of the reasons I did not feel like it was necessary, I believe, is because I knew OOCly that whatever happened wouldn't have a lasting IC impact; no one was going to get killed, BH wasn't going to get kicked out or razed to the ground, etc. I mistakenly thought that everyone would assume the same thing and be relatively chill about it, but no one else but me would have any way to know that for sure.

The second tax collection also did not have advance OOC notice. This one was perhaps a bit more negligent on my part, after seeing how the first one went, but I was also aware OOCly that BH had found out about it ICly somehow and were making preparations, so I thought it would be fine to forego it as the time approached. I think this one went better overall OOCly, too, which I was relatively happy about.

One thing I would like to comment on regarding this is that I am not 100% familiar with who everyone is IC in relation to Discords, and secondary Discord servers for certain factions/nations make it difficult to coordinate with them, or even know what they're up to. Obviously, in BH's case, they don't have private channels in the main server, nor am I trying to use this as an excuse and saying 'oh well if you guys just used the main discord then of course I would have given you more heads up' because I don't think it'd have changed anything. It's just a small point I want people to consider for the future.

Before I start, thank you for adressing the points made in a pretty good manner. 

However, I would like to expand on this point specifically, in relation to warning people OOCly in general; I feel like even if we managed to gather information ICly through what I can only describe as a 'in the right place at the right time' moment, I still believe there should be a guaranteed warning about these types of actions. (aka its probably a good idea to make it mandatory so everyone is ready and set or can inform the others about schedule, when they are available and the timezones so everyone has a chance to participate because man was that 8v8 fun from the other day)

[TheCommonNoob]

One thing I would like to comment on regarding this is that I am not 100% familiar with who everyone is IC in relation to Discords, and secondary Discord servers for certain factions/nations make it difficult to coordinate with them, or even know what they're up to. Obviously, in BH's case, they don't have private channels in the main server, nor am I trying to use this as an excuse and saying 'oh well if you guys just used the main discord then of course I would have given you more heads up' because I don't think it'd have changed anything. It's just a small point I want people to consider for the future.

In response to Dev's post, would it be possible to remedy this then within the main server? There are many player characters aligned with that of Wasgow (Beggar's Hole) that would love to have an official role. At least so that any OOC interactions can be more clear cut or any questions/concerns have a clear audience. There is even a proper hierarchy with the equivalent to a leader figure and acting-ambassadors within Wasgow.

It is certainly not a nation as of now, but seeing as of how the current conflict has swept them up to be a major centerpiece, I feel it would lead to better communication between players.

Edit: This was before it was asked for elsewhere and all has been set-up, thanks for your time.

[Somnolent Nova]

The place is literally named Beggar's Hole, a location picked because of its close proximity to smuggler NPCs and ramshackle appearance as far as the casual observer could determine. It's a community that exists because this overall OOC community loves memes and silly villains, because we love Black Falcons that talk about their unrequited love as they get beaten and recycled into the exact same black falcon for a later event, because we love Sawrock and his hand drawn maniacs who deliver equine fantasies into our inventories, and because we love bandits that ask for consent as a joke about the consent rules on the sim. If you would start trying to gussy up the place to be more serious so that you could win, then what even is the point? What even is the culture? Is it some anomalous, silly place where you can rob each other in the streets but for some reason merchants still want to come? Is it some place that makes a museum to a history it doesn't have? A barracks for thieves? An infirmary for- That actually is a good idea. They would probably need one.

The issue here is that you all did decide on what Beggar's Hole was going to be. In every interaction, every establishing moment, and every development it's been put forward as a silly, fun place where people can go to get rowdy and the Beggar's have their Hole. It's a vaguely lawless place with an honor of thieves sort of establishing order. It is a small place. Nobody decided what it would be but the people who went there.

Do you know how culture is formed? Like on a sociological definition, do you know what it entails? You answered your own question a few times while trying to enforce the point that they don't have a culture. Being a place where people can be organically themselves, whether it is being rowdy in the streets, drinking until the sun comes up, and generally just being free-spirited. A culture is ideas, concepts, behaviors, and forms of communication a group shows as a collective and shares in common. Merchants would come here because they're allowed to conduct their business without any sanction in place. Their freedom to pedal things that are outlawed in other city-states would find a root here. Like a black market could form, maybe the fertile volcanic soil from Terra Flama up north would give farmers a reason to come out.

And what do you mean 'a history that it doesn't have'? There's a starting point from when the original four decided to settle here. Right now, history is taking place because of the IC that is happening because we are engaging in border tension. Do you not think stuff like this would be documented down in books? Or a tale that people will talk about? It's taking onto a larger scale than some might like to admit, but Wasgow/Beggar's Hole has roots of its own whether people want to recognize it or not. 

This did nothing but reinforce the point that others are trying to make. You could argue that the SL2 community has its own culture in how they believe things should be settled, jokes, attitudes that are shared amongst another. That is what a culture is. If you don't think that the characters that have developed there don't have a life of it's own or any ideals beyond 'robbing you with consent', maybe you could try engaging with them and see that they're well-rounded characters. It might change your mind. It's just absolutely appalling to some of the population that people refuse to acknowledge them without trying to get a feel for how each character acts, as this is supposed to be a co-operative experience. 

There's even a document of HOW fellow 'bastards' should act towards one another. This was before the place even expanded outwards and others joined or caught interest. The entire goal was not to be bandits for your own pleasure and entertainment, though we decided to make it have some humor because it would be engaging for other parties. The original intent was to build a place that was unlike any other without (many) restricting laws. 

Think of it this way. What does BH have to offer that would push it beyond being a player faction? Nations, generally, have laws, exports, some form of government, things that would attract citizens (I know we all hate NPCs but please, citizens are people too) to want to live there, merchants to come peddle their wares, etc.

There are relatively small collectives of individuals who live in a mostly lawless fashion, but these are historically just tribes or barbarians, not something you'd call a nation. Just to be clear, I am not saying that BH could never become a nation or a city-state or etc. I encourage you all to pursue it as much as possible IC if that's your goal.

 
This is the correct definition. We're more of a tribe than anything. I think I said this earlier, probably not. Not sure but that is what I wanted to say, so thank you for clarifying part of my original post if that was lost. We are currently working towards making it more attractive so we can have those NPCS, because I do acknowledge them. We are acknowledging the criticism in trying to become more legitimized. I hope more people will try to plant their own flags (like Fairview, shout out to them).

Hopefully once we get this all ironed out, more stuff like this can happen for fresh roleplay. I appreciate the IC all around. It's just the OOC (everyone has said this already sorry if it's exhausting). If I sound confrontational, I apologize for the tone in advance. Thank you for reading.

[FaeLenx]

Do you know how culture is formed? Like on a sociological definition, do you know what it entails? You answered your own question a few times while trying to enforce the point that they don't have a culture. Being a place where people can be organically themselves, whether it is being rowdy in the streets, drinking until the sun comes up, and generally just being free-spirited.

You're right. I did answer that question a few times. Because that was the point I was making.

The culture is all of those things I mentioned, but it isn't museums and barracks and other things that you suggested. That doesn't all make sense. The way you were describing adding them was like asking for a checklist of things that you needed to get an end goal that you wanted, not at all a reflection of Beggar's Hole as it appears or how it's described.

And what do you mean 'a history that it doesn't have'? There's a starting point from when the original four decided to settle here. Right now, history is taking place because of the IC that is happening because we are engaging in border tension.

You're right. Right now history is happening, but they don't have any. This is perhaps the most defining moment for Beggar's Hole, but what would go in the museum that would change the discussion today in any reasonable manner? 

This did nothing but reinforce the point that others are trying to make. You could argue that the SL2 community has its own culture in how they believe things should be settled, jokes, attitudes that are shared amongst another. That is what a culture is. If you don't think that the characters that have developed there don't have a life of it's own or any ideals beyond 'robbing you with consent', maybe you could try engaging with them and see that they're well-rounded characters. It might change your mind. It's just absolutely appalling to some of the population that people refuse to acknowledge them without trying to get a feel for how each character acts, as this is supposed to be a co-operative experience. 

I have no doubt that they're well rounded characters. People on SL love these jokes. That's what I said. You all chose to derive some negative connotation from that where I was somehow saying that this was a negative thing in some way. Beggar's Hole exists because the concept is funny. People who I had assumed had a sense of humor and wanted to share that made it happen, and it was an alluring, funny prospect that brought in a lot of extra people. I don't think I'm reframing anything I said in any way when I say that I would hope that everyone was in on the joke. The issue with that is that evidently everyone wasn't in on the joke.

The person who coined it, made it, and founded it said that it was not a well intentioned joke at all, rather it was a scathing commentary on the way he thought this community was flawed. Because he felt that requiring consent was a problem. I'm glad you're all changing the name with that in mind, especially when you're asking others to provide consent and be well intentioned with the way they interact with you.

Hello

I am one of the people who founded Beggar's Hole back when we were still the consenting bandits. And I got to say, reading all of this made me feel confident in my decision in quitting the game. First I want to thank all the people who decided to participate in the faction and are trying their best to push it further than since it originally started. However, I have to correct this opinion that some people may have in regards to that what Beggar's Hole 'is'.

Everyone who says Beggar's Hole is just a meme spot with haha-funny OOC intent should really take a good hard look at the rules.

The reason Beggar's Hole exist is because we wanted to be antagonistic and not immediately killed off by the community who openly hate anything that has to do with conflict. This whole issue is a clear example of why conflict on SL2/Korvara is garbage. It is not just the rules but also the community who grew up on a game that rarely had any 'true' conflict where they were forced to accept the consequences. The fact that when the consenting bandits were still just that, the rules stated that you couldn't even rob people with permission, that was the entire joke.

There was no consequences if nobody wanted any.

That sole reason is the bane of this entire continent. Everyone can just push away from conflict or 'force' conflict by putting an app in to an admin and type out an essay about why X, Y, or Z deserves to be killed/robbed/etc. Beggar's Hole was created so that we could have a chance to be antagonistic and rise up to be more than just haha-funny people who rob with consent. Outside of the people who actively played there or aided in its initial creation have no right to say how Beggar's Hole should be seen on an OOC standpoint. Beggar's Hole wasn't created because y'all DEEMED it acceptable due to it being a meme, it was created because the community completely sucks with handling anything antagonistic or anything relating to conflict. It was a way for people who love RP but weren't used to SL2 to come together and form something that wasn't just being clique ran and one where something could actually happen on the world that was suppose to be centered on RP.

It is clear that a good amount of the community do not know how to handle it.

I don't know too much about the recent things outside of the recent activities that had occurred with the faction. I know about the odd NPC drama that had occurred, which I believe is rather stupid. NPCs should exist yes, but their roles should never be more significant than a PCs own as this world was meant to revolve you know, the actual players. Either way I can sit here and say communication is key, but that should have never been a thing that needed to be said in the first place. At the end of the day, the first major conflict that happened to Korvara after 2ish month was done by a group of people who barely or never played SL2 before and wanted something to actually come out of the game that wasn't just cuckplots and romance drama.

Take what I said as you will. I don't play the game anymore and hadn't since a bit after Beggar's Hole was formed. I saw enough and still hear enough which makes me uninterested in returning.

Since you're all intent on using only the words of players and founders, I've picked out the actual vitriol from his post without removing any of the rest of it lest I get accused of missing context. This guy's post is reductive to literally everyone else and what they've done on this game, hateful for a community that he is not a part of because it didn't fit his wants, and generally inflammatory. If I had to go back and fix my original post about ANYTHING about why Beggar's Hole exists, it would be to take out the part about it being a good natured laugh that we all shared. This man who is the founder has made it clear that he made it with the intention to laugh at everyone else, and nobody else is allowed to be in on the joke.

Evidently the entire point was that consent is stupid and we should just be grimelords. That goes against the spirit of what everyone else, quite literally EVERYONE ELSE in here is advocating.

Be better. Take what that all started and make something fun and good natured from it. Have fun. Stop pretending that all of this wasn't said though.

[PossumParty]

I have no doubt that they're well rounded characters. People on SL love these jokes. That's what I said. You all chose to derive some negative connotation from that where I was somehow saying that this was a negative thing in some way. Beggar's Hole exists because the concept is funny. People who I had assumed had a sense of humor and wanted to share that made it happen, and it was an alluring, funny prospect that brought in a lot of extra people. I don't think I'm reframing anything I said in any way when I say that I would hope that everyone was in on the joke. The issue with that is that evidently everyone wasn't in on the joke.

The person who coined it, made it, and founded it said that it was not a well intentioned joke at all, rather it was a scathing commentary on the way he thought this community was flawed. Because he felt that requiring consent was a problem. I'm glad you're all changing the name with that in mind, especially when you're asking others to provide consent and be well intentioned with the way they interact with you.

To me, it seems like you've got an idea of the place stuck in your head and are running with it and are trying to speak on how other people feel about the place and its people and not just yourself. Do you actually go and spend any time there, see what the place is like or the people? Maybe when it started out with the original leader then never left Geladyne again, perhaps? I had never met the original consent bandits, but the people that are there now are not jokes in any way and its outright disrespectful to refer to them as such. Beggar's Hole doesn't exist because the concept is funny. It's completely different from what it used to be. You are being flat out told this, multiple times- but you don't seem to care for anything the players from the place are saying. They didn't 'name change' for the reason you stated in mind. But how would you know? You're not going to ask and even telling you now, you'd likely not care for what others are telling you. It seems to me you'd rather not act towards these people in a good light or with good intentions, especially with how derogatory these posts in the thread from you have been. The person with the most vitriol in this thread has honestly been from you.

Be better. Take what that all started and make something fun and good natured from it. Have fun. Stop pretending that all of this wasn't said though.

Such as this as well, being condescendingly told to 'be better'. They've changed so much from what the original concept even was, it's totally something new and different. No one is even pretending it wasn't said, but it's quite evident you're stuck on it and how BH used to be to the point where multiple people telling you differently can't even get through to you or change your mind it seems on basically anything you've said through this entire thread.

I know it's going to be taken as a mean post, but to explain my intentions, sometimes people need the good, hard truth. I want to help change your mind, have you go and have fun with these people when it seems to me you're not even giving them a chance and you're constantly belittling them and trying to put them down. Please try to have an open mind and not have your ego get in the way of things. One of my very good friends is much like this. Sticks to his guns, doesn't budge a single foot on any topic, doubling down on it and burns friendships down over trivial things, never wanting to change his mind and he ends up regretting it. To you it's still 'haha funny joke bandits', but to others it's a loving family and community with good roleplay they can share a laugh and drink with and have an amazing time playing together. I just wish I could make you see it the way I do.

[BoberJones]

to clarify six people founded beggar's hole, tbh after my brief uh warning and not posting, I think it's best to just drop it, you don't seem to want to see eye to eye or have a discussion(?)
I believe it is best to just bury the hatchet here and talk about what dev has instead of going in circles between you and others, given that's where the argument has been and will go. Your manner of talking comes off as a bit rigid, but also you seem to come off as if you have a deal of authority over the topics you talk about, ranging from the creation of the nation to whatever else. I don't think you are open to being persuaded, and I think you are just making statements.

The person who coined it, made it, and founded it said that it was not a well intentioned joke at all, rather it was a scathing commentary on the way he thought this community was flawed. Because he felt that requiring consent was a problem. I'm glad you're all changing the name with that in mind, especially when you're asking others to provide consent and be well intentioned with the way they interact with you.

so anyway, to clarify, I (the person that made up the consenting bandits and the gimmick) winged it after intending to make a bandit and being caught on day one. a guard said that's illegal and I just said: well I ask for consent first and they said: well that isn't illegal. I just ran with it, when questioned if it was an ironic telling of rules I just posted .
I did not in fact say what you said I said, I never mentioned it was a scathing commentary on what I thought the community flaw was. Some people might have interpreted that after I told them what we did, some people might have decided that. Is it a funny little joke if its true? yeah its pretty funny, but 6 people made Beggar's Hole. And I was the sole consent bandit at the start, what the other 5 that started interpreted about the gimmick is on them, but as the """"Founder"""", you are far from correct on why I did it or how it came to be.

I have no doubt that they're well rounded characters. People on SL love these jokes. That's what I said. You all chose to derive some negative connotation from that where I was somehow saying that this was a negative thing in some way. Beggar's Hole exists because the concept is funny. People who I had assumed had a sense of humor and wanted to share that made it happen, and it was an alluring, funny prospect that brought in a lot of extra people. I don't think I'm reframing anything I said in any way when I say that I would hope that everyone was in on the joke. The issue with that is that evidently everyone wasn't in on the joke.

to again clarify, I being the one that was aggressive first did, in fact, derive negative connotation from what you said, because of the way you phrased it and how you hid that connotation in the form of formal writing, long-winded explanations and wordplay. I just read it and generally got the gist of what you had said, it was not exact wording no, it was an interpretation of the text you displayed, and it was displayed in some sort of negative light given the way you phrased it. However, if that was a misunderstanding than it is just that and we can move on from it. A lot of people rp'd with us and encouraged us to do what we did, amber made the map, people offered supplies, and I will be honest with you -- again as the """founder""". I simply made a plan that I knew would work with the community. idrc how the community interacts with antagonists or how they react, I simply noted it down and said: I'll have to do it this way. They idolize sawrock characters, goofy (IIRC generally one-off) chars that do evil deeds funnily and die later for hee hee ha ha laughs. I took note of that and after the scene with the consent thing happened I said, hey I think the best idea is for me to run this to the ground, be funny, be likable, and skate by being a -somewhat- antag. Being an antag can be worked in different ways, Eli has been an antagonist from start up until now, the funny stuff was just that, we were quite serious outside of that. Everyone was in on the joke because as I said, I made the joke up on the spot due to a player interaction the first day I made.

another note to make is to note the tone and waY I write, I will not put in the effort to be formal or professional, nor will I attempt to hide meaning in my text or change anything to go past the utmost casual effort i'd take to speak to anybody I do on discord or oocly. i do not intend to be inflammatory, insulting, etc, and I will admit that before, I pulled the trigger before I should have, but again this has all been pretty intensive and I've been around for every situation to happen that's gone on with Beggar's Hole, while attending school and working.

This man who is the founder has made it clear that he made it with the intention to laugh at everyone else, and nobody else is allowed to be in on the joke.

Evidently the entire point was that consent is stupid and we should just be grimelords. That goes against the spirit of what everyone else, quite literally EVERYONE ELSE in here is advocating.

Be better. Take what that all started and make something fun and good natured from it. Have fun. Stop pretending that all of this wasn't said though.

also your form of arguing or rhetoric is very straightforward. 
(slightly incorrect) claim that you believe ( state your point )
say evidently like it is evident because you believe it, tack on words he didn't  directly state like him accusing consent being stupid ( he just said it was the joke ), and that therefore must mean he's a grimelord (negative reaffirmation of the other view + claiming yours is true)
demanding ( at least in wording) that we need to be better, make it fun and good natured. that we need to have fun and stop pretending that all of this wasn't said ( confirm your opinion is 'objectively' correct and that we are bad people and need to be better, and to stop pretending like we weren't bad all along!)
again, I'm just pointing out what I see when you type, because as a person that likes to do this a lot, it is clear what you intend and the manner in which you want to reach it is. You are free to have your opinion, but I don't think indirectly calling us all grimelords due to one player's interpretation of what the gimmick was is fair, nor do I think it should you firstly identify there are multiple founders then later imply he's the sole founder and therefore everything he says is gospel and as such, we're all bad people.

tbh, I'm mostly stating all of this because when you first responded I got the general same vibe and gist and just went to be confrontational and inflammatory because I was upset you (in my perception and opinion) insulted all of my friend's characters, hard work, struggles, and stories. that was my interpretation and I responded in kind, even if I shouldn't have. I'd like if you could tone it down on the accusations and acting like they are truth or gospel and be open to discussing the topics that dev has outlined so we can get back on track as a community. I'm sure SL2 wants new people and does want to encourage them to do things like we've done and I feel that after all this back and forth we can get somewhere here, as we already have just from the time this was made until now.

i also don't want my long ranting and deconstruction of this to make me seem like I'm higher than you or others, I just felt like it was best to state my piece on some inaccuracies and why I interpreted your first, second and other posts as such.

[Snake]

Can y'all chill? I'm only seeing people stroking their e-peepees so far and not making use of this thread as it should be. No one is better than anyone, especially in the internet.

The whole talk about 'meme casuals' and 'hardcore elitists' is old news in SL2. Been there since I was a baby in this game, and lo, I'm now a manchild but it still exists. And I've yet to see an elegant solution to this dilemma, aside accepting that each side has its ups and downs, and sticking to the side or people you like.

You don't need to offend or confront other people, just because you enjoy the game in one way more than another. So let's just give this a halt from here and continue being productive so Dev gets better ideas to make the game more fun and balanced for all sides.

Pretty please?