[sadbot]

Guard break applies after the attack that applies it, with the only exceptions to this rule being lance de lion and libegrande (with kraken). In practice, this leaves guard break doing a poor job of actually punishing guarding. The person guarding is almost always left better off for having guarded, just slightly less better off than they otherwise would have been, even if they're immediately guard broken and then hit again while guard broken. Outside of 1-2m guards, the damage still mitigated on the guard breaking attack almost always outweighs the damage gained through guard break on the follow up, assuming that you're even in a position to follow up with another attack in the same turn. Obviously it becomes more relevant in team fights simply due to more opportunities for allies to potentially hit the guard broken enemy before the guard break ends, but I think that the status needs some support to actually do its intended job one on one.

Simply put, I think that all guard breaks should apply before the damage of the guard breaking attack, as lance de lion and libegrande already do. This would actually make guard break likely the best option when you're given a good opportunity to use it, rather than you probably being better off just taking your foot off the gas and using some non attack actions while waiting out the guard instead, even if you have the perfect opportunity to use what should be the perfect punish to it.

[Autumn]

Given that guarding is low commitment, I'm not sure any harsh punishment is in order, so the fact it applies before damage already should be good enough. More skills should be updated to apply this way I agree with that.

The damage differential of removing someone's 10% DR and replacing it with a 15% damage increased for that entire turn (including from all your allies) should be good enough I think. Guard Break is far more effective in team fights than in 1v1 situations, and thus makes it a bit hard to balance, I think it's current numbers are definitely fine and it's 1v1 utility can be increased far more than it's teamfight utility through the above methods.

[sadbot]

That was my thinking, such that it wouldn't make it kinda cracked in team fights just to make it worthwhile in 1v1. I also think that its fairly limited availability also plays a part in making the benefit it gives still quite reasonable with this change.

[Shujin]

yeah I guard breaks should apply before damage , Martial Artist LT is pretty much never used because you can not really benefit from it in 1v1 scenarios, ontop of being a fairly weak skill.

I forgot if ghosts did or not, but yeah. We do not have all that many guard breaks to begin with.

[Snake]

How about making Guard Breaks last a minimum of 2 rounds on top of it?

It says that 'while guard broken, they cannot guard', but more often than not, they will be unable to guard if they're slower than you anyways.

[sadbot]

I think that idea falls squarely into the area of what I was trying to avoid, a change that would make 1v1 guard break good but team fight guard break way too strong.

[Snake]

:thinking:

How about making Guard Break get the same treatment as Infliction Immunity? Have it lose 1 LV whenever the target is attacked, and once LV is 0, it ends prematurely.

[sadbot]

That would give some flexibility for guard breaks of different strengths that allow for more or less hits than others, but would also nerf it pretty severely in team fights. It would also still need a fairly short duration to play around regardless, given that it straight up disables parry skills.

I think just making guard break apply before the guard breaking attack is fine to make it do a bit more and be easier to make use of to function as an actual punish to guarding.

[renowner]

100% agree.
Guard break should guard break before damage is applied on every single thing that guard breaks.

Though maybe it should also end guard break after the turn the guard is broken. So you can't like. . have all 5 of your buddies smack up the guard broken dude. But that last part matters a lot less.

[Snake]

Yeah, seems reasonable then.