[Snake]

Aeons ago, we received a couple of passives that proc on evade, while some are godly and add to the general gameplay feel of each class, there are some passives that don't quite do anything significantly good or notable when they proc. And given dodging is very hard aside some classes, they could likely do a little more than what they currently do.

So, being a little concrete here, I'll skip over the ones I think are fine for the ones that are not:

Curate - Grace of God

- It's a miracle you weren't hurt. When you evade an attack, you gain Grace of God for 3 rounds. When you Pray, Grace of God is consumed to guarantee it will activate a bonus effect, and additionally grants Fanatic LV (Scaled FAI) for 4 rounds.

Fanatic: 10 + LV/2% chance any damage will be reduced by LV + Curate LV. Your next instance of non-status, non-bonus, non-field damage will make this status expire, but automatically inflict an injury (depending on the damage type).

- Curates don't go well with dodging in most situations, so Grace of God should be more rewarding. Building Evade on Curates is suicide, compared to building tanky stats.

EDIT: Should be more clear with my original intent. Pacifist Boon but defensive.

Rogue - Empty Pockets

- Good thing about people attacking you is that they don't notice stuff missing. When you evade an attack, you gain 15% success rate to your next Steal within 3 rounds, and if it's successful, the target cannot use items for 3 rounds.

Trickery: If the enemy has more than 500 Murai on them, and this is the first time you activate this skill against them, you will steal a random amount (1 ~ Rogue LV) of Murai from them, otherwise, you will steal FP instead. (This effect can only happen once per round).

- I never see this being usable in many situations, so this could likely be used as a counter to Bomb spamming that we're very much lacking nowadays. Also a trickery here to make the flavor text more faithful to what this skill is described as. "They didn't look, you swooped them."

EDIT: Is this less busted now?

Engineer - Security System

It's not nice to play rough. When you evade an attack, if you have any robots active, all will simultaneously fire at your attacker while you distract them. (Each shot's damage will be capped at 5 damage, to a maximum of 15 damage, but will be treated as protection-ignoring bonus damage.)

- This is another one that I never see being used in Engineer, since... Let's be real. A basic hit. From a summon. Come on! We can spice this up a bit more this way here, and further increase the salt against Engineers.

EDIT: This should make it more in pair with Evasive Strike.

Demon Hunter - Snake Dancer

Dance around your foe's attacks, frustrating them. While in Cobra Stance, when you evade an attack, you will teleport to a random cardinal within 1 range of them and face them (except the front, this movement will not activate field objects or effects).

Trickery: All Cobra skills' Momentum costs are reduced by 1 for 2 rounds. (While the effect is active, it cannot be reapplied.)

- Look how you massacred my girl.... I believe that Trickery limits the role of Snake Dancer, especially when it doesn't really add anything. 'A chance within a chance to reduce momentum' never sees huge use, or people willing to stay in Cobra Stance anymore. Real Demon Hunter users know that nowadays it's best to stay in Matador or Reaver.

EDIT: This should make it at least do something by itself.

Mage - Static Air

Blah blah blah. Deals 25 lightning damage, once per enemy, per round.

EDIT: Thanks for reminding me of this obscure one, Shujin.

And wow. That's all we have for on-dodge passive skills. We probably need more for other classes.

But alas, now these in particular now more comparable to something like Evasive Strike, Krahenflugel, Brain Freeze and Flottement.

[Shujin]

I know technically not an "on dodge passive", but I think it also fits in so I shamelessly do:

Static Air
25 damage, once, in its whole duration. Not even per turn.

Make it at least Once per turn. This part of the skill is borderline useless. It probably even be fine per dodge.

[renowner]

. . .Curates kinda have the best hit nerfs in the game. . . So they're actually pretty good at dodging if you use them in such an application.
But that nitpick aside;

Fanatic is absurd. Truly absurd. I could hit 60 scaled faith on basically any race. A 70% chance to lower damage by 120 and then also inflict an injury for free? And it sticks around? Its just. . .So busted. Pray is already very strong. . . Grace of god doesn't require anything to activate other than dodging, and glancing in this game basically constitutes an evade for most/all things so its not that hard to pull off. Making healers even tankier is not something that would add to the game's enjoyment I feel. And giving someone who already dodged your attack a tankiness buff on top of that? I'd tear my hair out!

Fanatic aside however; Grace of god being buffed is probably okay. But more because I think pray's bonus effects are lackluster for the most part. They're pretty shit at level 60. Grace of god should either stay the same and pray just gets a buffed bonus effect list, or it should add scaling to the bonus effects. (With the exception of the sanctuary one which is still good, or the debuff removal one which is also good)

Empty pockets also becomes far too pushed. You're trading a 0m investment for a free steal AND a buff to steal AND a restrain? That's way too much. . . Restrain is a weapon potential that costs 3m to use on its own, no less. On evades should not be so game changing. They should be smaller things, like the ninja talent that just does a small amount of damage, at least I think so. This is just a passive. On arguably the most dodgy class, that when I use it always ends up with a 100% trickery rate. They really don't need this. They can already pocket sand > Steal >Basic attack for 3m. . .

Security system. . Again. . A 0m investment skill that's probably doing too much on a class that's already one of the best in the game. I really don't think that's healthy to have be any stronger than it already is. I also do see security system used on every dodgey engineer I come across.

Snake Dancer:
I very strongly think that Winged Serpent spam is already obscenely overdone and invalidates most any melee attacker just by its existence. Cobra and demon hunter don't need the buff. And even if that weren't the case, lowering momentum costs on a trickery is very unfun, very imbalanced, and just way too powerful. Momentum scamming in general is extremely powerful. It being tacked onto a 0m passive shouldn't ever be a thing.
Inflicting worn out isn't imbalanced, probably. However. . Again. . . The class is already very well off and cobra itself is already cracked against melee attackers, and kind of in general. I'm against this.


Static air could certainly be buffed. To have higher damage and also trigger more than once. Electro shield is literally the same thing on an actual dodgy class except its way better and you can give it to others. And doesn't even require you to dodge.

If you think being a dodge is too boring and that you need more evasion passives. . .I think those would be better suited to equipment, and also I don't think I really agree either. Pretty much everything there already does a good bit for absolutely no momentum investment, and an egregiously small class point investment, and half the time not even a skill slot.

TLDR: Playing against a dodge build is also something that can be very infuriating and unfun in general, too. Dodgers now have shadow gi, among the other things they've had for some time. Like Fangfare. They can do cool stuff, like dodging into a riposte, dodging with ninjutsu, or just. . .Dodging everything in general. I'm not really certain these need to be changed at all, because they're already fully functional and do a lot for 0 momentum costing passives. If you think they need more fun tools, the way to go would be to give them more fun tools. Not to push already strong classes so hard. . . Or even at all.

Could make some boots that if you dodge someone in melee range, you kick for free.
There's a lot of things you could do.
But I don't think what's above is the best way to do them.

[Ray2064]

To agree with Renowner's latter part of his post- getting fucked in the ass harder for daring to miss a roll which already puts you in a bad position in the first place is anything but good-feeling for whoever suffers it. These passives should stay as they are. Niche bonuses that can slightly give you a boost, not reward you for simply doing what your build was most likely literally built to function for.

I just don't like this SL2 mindset of most things being easily resumed to : "X things wins but now even harder against Y other thing" with very little in-between. It often makes fights feel stale and accomplishes nothing but digging even larger of a gap between people at advantage and disadvantage.

[MegaBlues]

Remember that Evoker has an on-dodge passive too, and it's awful.

[Ray2064]

You cannot call it awful so long as it literally benefits you further for already having greatly reduced/entirely negated enemy damage in the first place.
End of the story.

[Poruku]

I'm down for changing these but every suggested modification is straight up op.

[Snake]

(Suggestions are welcome, people.)

Also, to clarify a little on each:

Fanatic is something that if you ever attack an enemy, it expires, but inflicts a free injury. (There's also the part where not all elements have injuries tied to them, such as Light damage or Water damage, which can end up wasting the passive). Think of it like a defensive Pacifist Boon.

I picture this being a 50% chance to reduce damage by a flat 85 (normally), (or 60% chance to reduce by 95 if we're being sweaty with FAI investment, I have no idea where ren got that 70% proc rate), at the trade of being able to attack, after dodging something, after using Pray, which consumes all your momentum and ends your turn pretty much.

By that you've spent a whole round doing nothing with Pray.

That said, if the problem here is less the damage reduction but proc frequency, I believe you should make a point about that rather than call everything busted and that it shouldn't be implemented. It's not that hard to give constructive criticism.

A simpler 10 + LV/2% chance to proc would be enough, so uber investments result in a 40% chance, while average investments are only slightly above 1/4th a chance to proc, for example.

==

Steal is steal. I just wish that stole something while the enemy is not looking. Hell, could even be FP and it would be fine, since nowadays everybody's FP pools are insanely large.

==

I told you everyone would get salty, lmao.

But in all honesty, I just wish this was changed to not be 'basic hit', but similar to the other dodgestuffs, and used more than just TURRET. Engineer has 4 bots, why only one should respond to this passive? Thinking about it, it would be best if all summoned bots shot the enemy for at least 15 damage that ignores protection and evasion. So the maximum this would do after a 12M investment is 60 damage on-dodge, once per enemy, per turn. (That can be mitigated by destroying the robots.)

==

My point stands. Could be similar to the previous proposition for Rogue, even if the number is like, really small. But I'm considering Demon Hunter alone here, not other promotions that can enable it to dodge. DH can't dodge by itself, if we're making a case about Curate having dodge debuffs, and rogue having dodge buffs. Soldier gives nothing for that.

==

Anyway, I made some edits, go take a peek now. It MIGHT be better, I just dunno what is 'op' or not anymore in this meta.

[renowner]

Okay so first of all, the mentality that you're doing nothing with pray is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. . And with passion at that.
I already said Pray is really strong. And that's with merit. The fp regen isn't what makes it strong. Its the weakest part of it in fact. Blue potions are literally way better. (Though they're also better than basically every fp regen skill in the game except the one or two that heal fp over time, but I digress.)

Regardless: The fact it buffs your luck by half of your UNSCALED faith, makes you effectively immune to crits. And it also boosts the positive duration of all beneficial effects you have on all of your allies. By two rounds. (Not even considering the bonus effects it can lay down. Icing on the cake.)
This can even include stuff like initiative or battle rush, overload amulet, debuff immunity, baphomet's offering, Anything. Its really really strong. Using it turn one is not really a bad call sometimes. Keep the extra first move bonus and battle rush and all of the above. Its also not a bad call turn 2 when enemies are closer for the anti crit to kick in, and for you to have already spent a turn buffing everyone. Pairs extremely well with the aquamancer heal in a rainstorm that hits all allies, too.

With that out of the way. . . Curate already has pacifist boon. Having a free 85 armor and magic armor is NOT okay. Hell, even 10 armor and magic armor isn't okay. The class already has Aegis to begin with, too. Fanatic isn't good for the game. Curate is already a very tanky, very well supported heal and buff class, granting it even more survivability to such an absurd level, or even at all is just not fair. It does not work on a conceptual level, unless perhaps it was something that only works if you dodge a monster's attack. And if you just want something neat for curate dodgers to have. . I'd say just make it do something with convert and calm and stuff. Like if you dodge a monster's attack you automatically attempt to calm them, or convert them if they're already calm. That'd be interesting and give them something extra to do, without giving an already crazy class something it doesn't need that'd make other players feel like pulling their hair out if they dodge. Healers don't need more incentive to just sit back and heal, or rely on summons which would bypass the inflicting damage stipulation entirely anyway.

And for the record I did give alternate paths to some of the skills. I don't think saying you weren't given any constructive criticism at all is unfair. We blatantly said that giving things for free to someone who *already* blanked your entire attack action will just be giving players more bad feels without adding anything constructive to the game. On a fundamental level, there's only so much constructive criticism you can give if you disagree with an idea. If someone said to add the super longsword's insta win potential to a class, there isn't too much I could say other than: "No that'd ruin the game, please don't."
However if I did come across as mean or toxic or just. . Annoyed in general, I apologize. It wasn't my intention and I do truly appreciate that you go out of your way to post suggestions, and that you feel comfortable enough to do so for this community. Its helpful regardless of our opinions on the actual requests and suggestions.
I really don't think that dodgers need more win more buttons, and if you wanted more interesting dodge abilities i'd say you should tie them to actual momentum costs, and not make them so crazy. Its a very dangerous balancing act making dodging just. . .Do even more for already stopping your entire action. It'd be like if body of isesp also did some crazy bullshit when it stopped your attack. That'd just feel horrible.
(I understand the fundamental difference there, but some people genuinely can't hit some dodgers and have no ability to do so at all. And that's a crushing feeling.)

Additionally If for some reason these techniques don't trigger on dodging non basics despite not mentioning it, then they should be updated to mention that or be changed to also work on skills. But i'm not sure they even don't in the first place. Definitely. That seems kind of silly.

However it also isn't fair to balance a class in a vacuum. Unless that skill is specifically required to have the class be mained and subbed to use it. Like Aquamancer's crest break. Saying the cobra technique is fine because soldier has no inherent dodge buffs on its own doesn't make giving a busted dodge thing to them okay. Some races have evasiveness techniques. A lot of equipment does. And some classes can on their own hit the +50 buff cap just as is. Subbed or mained. Its not hard to hit the dodge cap as a demon hunter. Cobra gives 5 evade by default while you're in it too.

And finally for the updates. . .Empty pockets doesn't break the game. I doubt it'd be implemented though, we have rules about stealing and such. And it really would just be even more bad feels on top of it. And it'd suck to have a passive that probably isn't even toggleable end up getting you put in jail and executed too. Cool idea but it doesn't really work without oversight from admins saying hey you can't notice this thieving, ever. Which just feels like godmodding. IF it needed to do something else, maybe it just. . . Lets you put your hand back in your pocket? Which only works for you know, one equipment in the game. But that'd be cool, niche, and something new to abuse I suppose. Probably niche enough that it'd be fine to add. Or add the hand in pocket skill to you even without the offhand item, if you have no shield or sub weapon equipped, and have more than one arm.

Security system is probably weaker with what you described. . But maybe people like it more since its all your robots? I Dunno. I feel like maybe it should be a separate passive that changes the effects while toggled on. Or the passive itself has a toggle, for turret or full support. A trade off. that could actually be a very cool idea.

The cobra thing. . still just. . It won't work. For the reasons I said above, I think its a horrible thing for the game. And far too crazy. I can't give any real advice here nor do I have ideas. Cobra is already stupid and I don't think it needs any special super dodge thing. Other than maybe, turning to face them if you dodge. Which, with how flanking currently works, is actually bad.

Static air's still way too weak still.
To put it in perspective, electro shield is 60 damage whenever you're hit by a melee weapon, active for 7 rounds. It costs 3m.
Static air is 25 damage when you dodge, once per round, and costs 3m.

Really think static air should either scale with lightning attack, possibly lightning critical, or just do 50-60 base damage. Electro shield's a promo skill so static air should probably be a little weaker. Then again plenty of pre-promoted stuff is way stronger than promoted stuff so I dunno.