[caliaca]

I think this line of thinking is inherently flawed. There will always be a mismatch due to the stark difference of classes, items, stats, and so on. I don't believe that means we don't touch outlying factors on either side of nerf or buff.

Just becase there can only be perfection in coinflips doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and make things better and I think to think otherwise is silly.

[Sawrock]

Okay, here's a question then: the prior example of a zero-points-in-skill support character. How do you balance them for a 1v1? By what means should a support character win in a 1v1 against a crit rushdown character? A steady tank? A summon-swarm character? Almost always, the support character is going to lose- that's not where their strength lies. Another example: a void assassin against a mage. Void assassins are specifically designed to counter mages; they have silence inflict, higher magic resistance, and their void pollution causes spell costs to rise. Should a void assassin against an evoker be balanced? Absolutely not. Note, I'm not saying things should not be looked at or adjusted, I'm saying things should not be specifically aimed at being balanced.

When I say the game should not be balanced for 1v1s, I mean not every class should be around equal in chances of victory against another class. When I say the game should be balanced for team play, I mean every class should be able to be decently considered to be used in a team.

Bringing me back to my initial point: I do not have enough current knowledge of the game to say how dodge should be adjusted, but I think the thought of "I can't hit this person reliably, dodge needs to be fixed" is a path towards the practice in poor mechanical depth.

[caliaca]

Okay, here's a question then: the prior example of a zero-points-in-skill support character. How do you balance them for a 1v1? By what means should a support character win in a 1v1 against a crit rushdown character? A steady tank? A summon-swarm character? Almost always, the support character is going to lose- that's not where their strength lies. Another example: a void assassin against a mage. Void assassins are specifically designed to counter mages; they have silence inflict, higher magic resistance, and their void pollution causes spell costs to rise. Should a void assassin against an evoker be balanced? Absolutely not. Note, I'm not saying things should not be looked at or adjusted, I'm saying things should not be specifically aimed at being balanced.

When I say the game should not be balanced for 1v1s, I mean not every class should be around equal in chances of victory against another class. When I say the game should be balanced for team play, I mean every class should be able to be decently considered to be used in a team.

Bringing me back to my initial point: I do not have enough current knowledge of the game to say how dodge should be adjusted, but I think the thought of "I can't hit this person reliably, dodge needs to be fixed" is a path towards the practice in poor mechanical depth.

You don't balance that one for a 1v1 specifically. They have opted to not be balanced for one versus one. That is fine. But again, this isn't about making a perfect system, I am merely saying that we have to keep 1v1 in mind when balancing and that out of line things should clearly be hit, even if its 1v1 imbalanced and not 4v4 imbalanced.

[FatherCrixius]

Tbqh I'm not going to talk about reverting to Gr1 or reverting the system in general. Dev has stated multiple times over he does not want to do this and won't do this. So I am not really entertaining the thought and it's not what this thread is about. This thread is about attempting to make the current system palatable for both sides.

I believe this would make things both more enjoyable and more balanced. These are not mutually exclusive.

Then it's prolly always gon suck my guy, systems just flawed inherently. You can encroach on making it more balanced through far more work than it is likely worth but ion think you can convince anyone it'll be more fun to have it the way it is currently.

[caliaca]

I mean if you wanna make a thread about reverting to GR1 do it. It's just not what this thread is about.

[Senna]

I mean, with the existence of the new combat system that can also support 1v1 or just a full war, there is nothing really stopping you and whoever you're fighting from modifying how you would like your evade and hit to work. Nothing's stopping you from setting the lowest hit to 25 and the highest evade to 85.

Or just go back to the GR1 days with that system, just with basic attack including to it. A revert isn't needed, moving forward is more idea and getting some fix on certain skills and items (Or offering some of the evade torsos to Korv like Green-Scale Tunic without murdering it via nerfs). Some of the adjustment is kinda simple? Small stuff like 'This amount of evade for 1 attack', can be increased to 2 or even 3 base on the CD the skill gets after. Evade ignores getting Great Accuracy instead but ofc, to counter act these, weapon part hit getting an adjustment; increasing their value or just base weapon hit increasing by 5~10. Little stuff that can have massive impacts.

I just figure people need to experiment more with new battle functions first though. If anything, just officials battle guidelines and rules on that is needed.

[Snake]

I don't like how you can passively hit someone, but need to always buff up to dodge someone. Even monsters.

[Poruku]

I gotta disagree with my boy sawrock here; to a degree, it's true that it would be boring if you could defeat anything... Except that's already something that is possible. Some builds in this game are simply strong enough at the top level to defeat any other build. At the current time, these builds are not evade builds.

Evade is a weird thing. I personally like it how it is right now when it comes to the really high-end pvp because it's like gambling, and when done right, it can make you feel really powerful, but also keep you on the edge of your seat. Really fun. The issue is not really there though.

In my eyes the issue with evasion is the people who are not as sweaty as me. The people who don't pump their hit or evade super high, who don't really build for pvp in mind in general. Those people will simply get destroyed by a person with good hit/evade. Your evade build isn't top tier? You will die in like 2 turns. Your hit chance isn't good and I'm running an evade build? You will have literally 0% chance to hit. To me, that is just not that fun. Not to say that they should have a 50% chance to win... But they should at least be able to deal damage or dodge a few attacks!

Additionally, the current evasion formula makes it a nightmare to balance event mobs. Like damn, I need to make sure they all have some very specific numbers to make it fair. And if you come to an event with an unoptimized character? Well you better hope you don't get attacked or you can be useful enough hitting the non-evade mobs. Either way, it's just... It could be better! I think the system works, but it really could be better!

[Autumn]

In my eyes the issue with evasion is the people who are not as sweaty as me. The people who don't pump their hit or evade super high, who don't really build for pvp in mind in general. Those people will simply get destroyed by a person with good hit/evade. Your evade build isn't top tier? You will die in like 2 turns. Your hit chance isn't good and I'm running an evade build? You will have literally 0% chance to hit. To me, that is just not that fun. Not to say that they should have a 50% chance to win... But they should at least be able to deal damage or dodge a few attacks!

Additionally, the current evasion formula makes it a nightmare to balance event mobs. Like damn, I need to make sure they all have some very specific numbers to make it fair. And if you come to an event with an unoptimized character? Well you better hope you don't get attacked or you can be useful enough hitting the non-evade mobs. Either way, it's just... It could be better! I think the system works, but it really could be better!

I will add here that I think one way of closing the gap between optimized and not optimized is to simply lower the cap of bonus hit/evade to 25 each, this would be a far more achievable goal for both ends of the spectrum to be able to achieve and also not make unoptimized play so punishing.

This would come with the unfortunate circumstance of flanking being REALLY damn good, but that can be tuned on it's own as well.

[Sawrock]

I gotta disagree with my boy sawrock here; to a degree, it's true that it would be boring if you could defeat anything... Except that's already something that is possible. Some builds in this game are simply strong enough at the top level to defeat any other build. At the current time, these builds are not evade builds.

Evade is a weird thing. I personally like it how it is right now when it comes to the really high-end pvp because it's like gambling, and when done right, it can make you feel really powerful, but also keep you on the edge of your seat. Really fun. The issue is not really there though.

In my eyes the issue with evasion is the people who are not as sweaty as me. The people who don't pump their hit or evade super high, who don't really build for pvp in mind in general. Those people will simply get destroyed by a person with good hit/evade. Your evade build isn't top tier? You will die in like 2 turns. Your hit chance isn't good and I'm running an evade build? You will have literally 0% chance to hit. To me, that is just not that fun. Not to say that they should have a 50% chance to win... But they should at least be able to deal damage or dodge a few attacks!

Additionally, the current evasion formula makes it a nightmare to balance event mobs. Like damn, I need to make sure they all have some very specific numbers to make it fair. And if you come to an event with an unoptimized character? Well you better hope you don't get attacked or you can be useful enough hitting the non-evade mobs. Either way, it's just... It could be better! I think the system works, but it really could be better!

I’m confused- which part of my post do you disagree with? I don’t see where our opinions differ.