[Poruku]

New skill - Certain Defeat

Becomes available when within 1 tile of a defeated player

3m - 1 range

Finish them off! The target player can no longer be revived by any means for the rest of the fight.


Revives in team battles make for extremely lengthy fights and give a large advantage to any side that has a revive like last chance, especially aoe ones. This would help to alleviate this disparity in a way that makes sense. It would also reduce the amount of random revives from diehard in overly long battles. Often when there's a lot of players in a fight that are spread apart, people spend a lot of time going around the map re-killing people... It's fun to get another shot at fighting when you're down, but this kinda makes no sense, why can't we ensure that someone isn't getting back up? In spars shouldn't they be counted as "out"? And in serious battles, couldn't they be literally KO or dead?

[Snake]

I'd rather make Badly Wounded something that knocks the player out next round. Being defeated in combat should be final and those extra padding such as 'Certain Defeat' break immersion. It's hard to take that status as anything but a magical "please sit down and don't stand up, rp accordingly" that is way too mechanical and unexplainable.

So basically, why not make Badly Beaten something like this:

Badly Beaten

On the brink of unconsciousness. Momentum is reduced by LV (-1 LV every round start). At the start of your turn, if your HP is at less than X% of its maximum, it will be set to 0 and your turn will be skipped. (Min LV = 0, Max. LV = 5, X = 50 + 9 * LV)

- Basically, fusing Certain Defeat with Badly Beaten and making it a matter of if you want to make someone stand up, they should be at least healed to a certain threshold, instead of spam reviving someone to make fights longer. So healers must dedicate to nursing someone up if they're fighting again; otherwise, they only got at best 1 shot before they go down.

Die Hard

You're hard to pin down. If you take any damage that would put your HP below 1, any further damage is ignored until the end of the round, but for each enemy that attack you during Die Hard, you will gain/power up Badly Beaten LV2 for 5 rounds. (Once per enemy, per attack).

- Making this just be what the idea of 'bouncing back' should. It's also way more anime to stand there and withstand the deathblows only to flop later if you're not healed up in time.

General estimates for Badly Beaten application:

- Badly Beaten is applied when an enemy is revived.
- Different revive skills should inflict different levels of Badly Beaten. Things that revive multiple people (Mass + Second Chance, Phoenix, etc.) should leave someone with a higher level of Badly Beaten (LV3-4), while single-targeted revives (Sal Volatile?, Phenex's Racial Revive, Field Medic, etc.), should be less. (LV1-2)
- Checkmate should inflict Badly Beaten LV5 if it defeats an enemy, for 10 rounds.

[Autumn]

New skill - Certain Defeat

Becomes available when within 1 tile of a defeated player

3m - 1 range

Finish them off! The target player can no longer be revived by any means for the rest of the fight.


Revives in team battles make for extremely lengthy fights and give a large advantage to any side that has a revive like last chance, especially aoe ones. This would help to alleviate this disparity in a way that makes sense. It would also reduce the amount of random revives from diehard in overly long battles. Often when there's a lot of players in a fight that are spread apart, people spend a lot of time going around the map re-killing people... It's fun to get another shot at fighting when you're down, but this kinda makes no sense, why can't we ensure that someone isn't getting back up? In spars shouldn't they be counted as "out"? And in serious battles, couldn't they be literally KO or dead?

Like...where do you intend this to go? As a trait to grab? In which case no thank you, I see zero reason to give what is a very strong cooldown from BK to everyone in the game because a team has a chance (Keyword: Chance.) to come back from the brink of defeat because no one on the enemy team sought fit to either take the necessary precautions or just doesn't have the damage to finish off the fight.

There's 0 issue in revives happening in a teamfight due to the already existing badly beaten mechanics already set in place, even -4m, and subsequently -1m each turn thereafter from reviving once is a huge deal that sets back your team in not only the momentum spent on reviving those allies but also in the momentum they lose from there on.

If everyone is spread out then the healer is going to have a lot of trouble actually reviving these people to begin with, you're targeting the wrong thing here and it's been something I've pointed out as an actual imbalanced healer mechanic for ongoing 2-3 years now, and that is the sheer absolute absurdity that is Mass + Rescue.

When it comes to healers in this game, you're just going to have to deal with them and respect that they are powerful forces generally.

[Poruku]

There's 0 issue in revives happening in a teamfight due to the already existing badly beaten mechanics

When it comes to healers in this game, you're just going to have to deal with them and respect that they are powerful forces generally.

The issue is two-fold
1: healers are already op and get to use mass revive
2: random guy procs badly beaten and the fight goes on for way longer than needed

Badly beaten is a bandaid fix that doesn't always really fix the problem. Sure you lost 1m, but you still have 6m to act with. That's way better than 0.

I don't like the idea that healers should be accepted as op. It's possible to make them balanced, why would we give up?

And yeah its harder to revive a guy whos far away but the issue with spread out dead ppl is diehard, having ppl pop back up from across the field. People close together? The issue is mass revive overwhelmingly shifting the battle. Like, one team has a healer with aoe, one doesn't. The one with the healer wins cause everyone got back up with a 273 heal, and then another heal slapped on top. Now the full team is half hp while the other team is low. It's absolutely insane how big of a swing that is. tbh that does need another kind of nerf

[Rendar]

I think my only disdain for teamfights is whenever people die clustered together. Someone gets up far away from the fighting and isn't put down immediately. Maybe the group shifted to the target across the map and can't make it back to kill the person who got back up.

So they Phoenix revive all the allies near them. And throw out a malmelo for good measure.

And then all of the allies near them get back up. And get their turns. And if they have heals. They throw them out. So it goes from a potential 1v4 situation to "These guys who were at 0 HP just suddenly got up and all have max HP again."

[Autumn]

There's 0 issue in revives happening in a teamfight due to the already existing badly beaten mechanics

When it comes to healers in this game, you're just going to have to deal with them and respect that they are powerful forces generally.

The issue is two-fold
1: healers are already op and get to use mass revive
2: random guy procs badly beaten and the fight goes on for way longer than needed

Badly beaten is a bandaid fix that doesn't always really fix the problem. Sure you lost 1m, but you still have 6m to act with. That's way better than 0.

I don't like the idea that healers should be accepted as op. It's possible to make them balanced, why would we give up?

And yeah its harder to revive a guy whos far away but the issue with spread out dead ppl is diehard, having ppl pop back up from across the field. People close together? The issue is mass revive overwhelmingly shifting the battle. Like, one team has a healer with aoe, one doesn't. The one with the healer wins cause everyone got back up with a 273 heal, and then another heal slapped on top. Now the full team is half hp while the other team is low. It's absolutely insane how big of a swing that is. tbh that does need another kind of nerf

This isn't an issue though, this is just a complaint, I'm not saying that healers should be accepted as overpowered either, but they should be accepted as strong members of any team core yes, if you lack healing that doesn't mean you auto-lose but you are down a very important part of any team composition just like if your team lacks CC and/or Damage. That is why more and more classes are getting healing sprinkled in their kits I assume.

Now I don't disagree that healing shouldn't get more checks, but I think that deserves more of a re-evaluation of the interference status effect rather than being able to prevent people from reviving all together. As the interference status effect comes with its own issues that basically makes healers feel like they need a way to counteract it currently.

I'll say my belief once again, healers are not overpowered, ever since the cooldown nerfs they come with their own issues and are unironically pretty balanced to the entire experience, they're a part of the game full stop. Like I said before, one of the big enablers of healers being able to do what they do is Mass + Rescue just being an omnipotent set-up tool, I don't think Rescue should be able to target corpses personally, as there should be disadvantage to where you die.

How else otherwise do you deal with people dying in clusters? AoE and/or displacement tools such as vanishing strike, pinball etc.

[Shujin]

The only times I think it even begins to be an issue is when there is like 2 healers in a party, or more. Because at that point you either have a hard counter or you lost.

Mass is very powerful, but I don't think its wrong for the dedicated healer to feel actually useful in the team. So I do not think this is the right way to adress it, even if I wouldn't mind seeing more skills that do apply certain defeat. rest would just be mirroring autumn probably.

[zericosmic]

I think adding an action to prevent getting up would kind of make teamfights less fun. Sitting around waiting for nothing to happen kind of sucks, at least with diehard and rezes there's something to potentially look forward to if you get focused down fast.

That being said, I much prefer the 3m action suggestion over the suggestion to make getting KOs more punishing, as that would effect all content.

Eventmins especially would have to walk over eggshells not to make mobs that can accidentally hurt players a bit too much because being out of commission for most of a fight is just straight up not fun.