[Jay]

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 am[/url]"]
If anything, make PG a Ghost skill. Seems like it'd fit right in there given they're supernatural fighters and all. Hell, that's probably even a nerf given the amount of selection you have to do with Ghost's skills even now.

I also had this idea, but was hoping someone would bring it up. And my proposals aren't outright reinventing the skill or its purpose. As you can see, these damage chunks were done without criticals.

[MakeshiftWalrus]

Jay » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:59 am[/url]"]

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 am[/url]"]
If anything, make PG a Ghost skill. Seems like it'd fit right in there given they're supernatural fighters and all. Hell, that's probably even a nerf given the amount of selection you have to do with Ghost's skills even now.

I also had this idea, but was hoping someone would bring it up. And my proposals aren't outright reinventing the skill or its purpose. As you can see, these damage chunks were done without criticals.

Jay » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:51 pm[/url]"]Proposals
--> Adjusting the FP cost. Starting from 30-35 FP at rank 1 to 20-25 FP at max rank.
--> Negating criticals with the skill. It already receives boosts from skills such as AD.
--> Keeping the damage type slash regardless of weapon choice OR give it an element that cannot be changed.

These are your proposals, yes? Now, while I'm not exactly sure if you can change PG's damage type I would have to agree with the third point. Unless you mean in a physical sense, to which I'd have to disagree. That'd destroy the purpose of the skill, something you sad you weren't trying to do. I don't particularly agree with either of the other proposals either for these reasons:

Making the FP cost nearly the same as an Evoker's spell is a terrible idea. That makes the price far outweigh the gain, especially considering that Kensei's abilities are less expensive with various different effects compared to PG. Perhaps raise the cost a bit, but not by more than 7 or eight at max rank since neither Ghost or Kensei typically has a lot of Focus to burn in the first place.
I don't think we should negate critical attacks with the skill either. Especially not when BKs passively increase resistance to just that. I'm going to be the first to say that powering through Negation is pretty easy, though, so I could get behind the bonus damage that PG current gives maybe shouldn't count towards a critical strike, but rather add the damage afterwards, or not at all.

[Jay]

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:54 am[/url]"]

Jay » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:59 am[/url]"]

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 am[/url]"]
If anything, make PG a Ghost skill. Seems like it'd fit right in there given they're supernatural fighters and all. Hell, that's probably even a nerf given the amount of selection you have to do with Ghost's skills even now.

I also had this idea, but was hoping someone would bring it up. And my proposals aren't outright reinventing the skill or its purpose. As you can see, these damage chunks were done without criticals.

Jay » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:51 pm[/url]"]Proposals
--> Adjusting the FP cost. Starting from 30-35 FP at rank 1 to 20-25 FP at max rank.
--> Negating criticals with the skill. It already receives boosts from skills such as AD.
--> Keeping the damage type slash regardless of weapon choice OR give it an element that cannot be changed.

These are your proposals, yes? Now, while I'm not exactly sure if you can change PG's damage type I would have to agree with the third point. Unless you mean in a physical sense, to which I'd have to disagree. That'd destroy the purpose of the skill, something you sad you weren't trying to do. I don't particularly agree with either of the other proposals either for these reasons:

If you're not sure, it's best to ask. If you wear something like a Kirosh, the damage type becomes dark damage. No where in my proposal mentions changing the damage from magical to physical.

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 am[/url]"]
Making the FP cost nearly the same as an Evoker's spell is a terrible idea. That makes the price far outweigh the gain, especially considering that Kensei's abilities are less expensive with various different effects compared to PG. Perhaps raise the cost a bit, but not by more than 7 or eight at max rank since neither Ghost or Kensei typically has a lot of Focus to burn in the first place.

There is no real 'loss' when your melee can suddenly target another defensive stat reserved for mages. If Power Gradation became 20 FP as opposed to 10 FP, it'd reinforce some strategy or consideration of skill spamming. A typical ghost or kensei has at least 15-20 will, which is around 220-240 FP. That increase in cost is generous when you consider similar skills like Judgement Blade, and the fact Kensei can passively regenerate FP. It's not quite 'neither Ghost or Kensei typically has a lot of Focus to burn' so much as 'Ghost or Kensei typically burn most of their Focus toward game changing skills; Power Gradation'.

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 am[/url]"]
I don't think we should negate critical attacks with the skill either. Especially not when BKs passively increase resistance to just that. I'm going to be the first to say that powering through Negation is pretty easy, though, so I could get behind the bonus damage that PG current gives maybe shouldn't count towards a critical strike, but rather add the damage afterwards, or not at all.

Lets just say that even with that free +50 Crit Evade for having horrible luck growths, the critical opportunities from Poise, Kensei's Innates, Weapon Parts, Ghost's Passive, and things like VA's Veil off neuters that protection. Anyway, the skill is basically a spell, and I don't think it should benefit from fleur or even critical. It's already heavily benefiting from AD, among other things.

[MakeshiftWalrus]

Jay » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:29 pm[/url]"]
If you're not sure, it's best to ask. If you wear something like a Kirosh, the damage type becomes dark damage. No where in my proposal mentions changing the damage from magical to physical.

Right, I had completely forgotten the elemental swords existed. Most of those are at least resistible, though, so I don't see why you'd ever want to change from your far superior Slash damage for those.

Jay » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:29 pm[/url]"]
There is no real 'loss' when your melee can suddenly target another defensive stat reserved for mages. If Power Gradation became 20 FP as opposed to 10 FP, it'd reinforce some strategy or consideration of skill spamming. A typical ghost or kensei has at least 15-20 will, which is around 220-240 FP. That increase in cost is generous when you consider similar skills like Judgement Blade, and the fact Kensei can passively regenerate FP. It's not quite 'neither Ghost or Kensei typically has a lot of Focus to burn' so much as 'Ghost or Kensei typically burn most of their Focus toward game changing skills; Power Gradation'.

I suppose the comparison to a spell could be made, but considering that it scales off Strength rather than Willpower, checks for accuracy (I know it doesn't matter against BKs, but I'm still including it.) as well as requires you to be in melee range of whoever you want to hit I don't think a raise to the cost would do much other than frustrate the few people who doesn't have a lot of Focus to throw around. Besides, there's still ways to reduce the damage by tons via guarding. Eventually you're going to run out of Focus if you spam PG, especially if your hits won't do anything but hit for 35~ damage per hit while you sit behind your shield. Combined with Monk you're capable of healing it back even.

Jay » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:29 pm[/url]"]
Lets just say that even with that free +50 Crit Evade for having horrible luck growths, the critical opportunities from Poise, Kensei's Innates, Weapon Parts, Ghost's Passive, and things like VA's Veil off neuters that protection. Anyway, the skill is basically a spell, and I don't think it should benefit from fleur or even critical. It's already heavily benefiting from AD, among other things.

I know it's easy to stack crit chance. Very much so, even for non-Archers. I myself sport a (Boosted) 19 power 40+ crit sword with 5 weight that benefits from Fitting Form. I don't agree with having it lack critical strikes given that's essentially what the Duelist trees work around. Leaving it without a chance to crit would make it worse than most of the Monk skills, to which they could just turn in order to bust down tanks. Hell, we all know Monk/Kensei is broken. And everything benefits from AD, it's not just PG. Literally everything that hurts, AD benefits in a significant way, which I would agree is pretty dumb. But I don't think limiting the skill either would be any better. It's a spiral of getting things banned from its effect until nothing remains. If you give PG the limitation that's going to feel unfair seeing as the monks are still scaling 1-1 on Setting Sun and pretty darn well on Dragon Gale and that it does more/slightly less with an additional effect. We could instead do it to all magical damage-based attacks, but then where would we be?

In my opinion, making PG a promotion skill and increasing the skill's cost slightly would be enough, but not if it's on par with Kensei's costs.

[Jay]

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:01 pm[/url]"]

Right, I had completely forgotten the elemental swords existed. Most of those are at least resistible, though, so I don't see why you'd ever want to change from your far superior Slash damage for those.

It's the -diversity- that is the problem. You are casting between light, dark, water, fire, slash magic damage. Everything is resistible. And I'm not sure what you mean by 'far superior slash damage'.

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:01 pm[/url]"]
I suppose the comparison to a spell could be made, but considering that it scales off Strength rather than Willpower, checks for accuracy (I know it doesn't matter against BKs, but I'm still including it.) as well as requires you to be in melee range of whoever you want to hit I don't think a raise to the cost would do much other than frustrate the few people who doesn't have a lot of Focus to throw around. Besides, there's still ways to reduce the damage by tons via guarding. Eventually you're going to run out of Focus if you spam PG, especially if your hits won't do anything but hit for 35~ damage per hit while you sit behind your shield. Combined with Monk you're capable of healing it back even.

The whole point is that it scales off Strength instead of a melee's paltry Willpower. The checking for accuracy is slightly irrelevant for a clear reason. 1) A character who can actively dodge your attacks likely has slightly lower defense, same resistance and defense, or absurd resistance to begin with. And you'd prioritize skills such as wazabane or autohits. As for 'frustrate' the few people, that's open for discussion. So I'd be nice if people give feedback on the cost being raised. Now guard.. is silly. It combats every single damage output, not just PG, so that's probably best left for another thread. But if you want to be technical, ghosts have a neat skill that breaks guard, you can probably guess what it is.

MakeshiftWalrus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:01 pm[/url]"]
I know it's easy to stack crit chance. Very much so, even for non-Archers. I myself sport a (Boosted) 19 power 40+ crit sword with 5 weight that benefits from Fitting Form. I don't agree with having it lack critical strikes given that's essentially what the Duelist trees work around. Leaving it without a chance to crit would make it worse than most of the Monk skills, to which they could just turn in order to bust down tanks. Hell, we all know Monk/Kensei is broken. And everything benefits from AD, it's not just PG. Literally everything that hurts, AD benefits in a significant way, which I would agree is pretty dumb. But I don't think limiting the skill either would be any better. It's a spiral of getting things banned from its effect until nothing remains. If you give PG the limitation that's going to feel unfair seeing as the monks are still scaling 1-1 on Setting Sun and pretty darn well on Dragon Gale and that it does more/slightly less with an additional effect. We could instead do it to all magical damage-based attacks, but then where would we be?

The fact you're comparing a base class to a promo class says a lot about the base class. The Duelist tree offers three other sword skills that can potentially crit. And yes, everything benefits, but some things take it to the next level (see: PG, Charge Weapons, Charged Mind). I'd rather not think too much on 'Duelists' needing to be as competent as 'Monks'. But as I said, PG currently has diversity. A setting sun and dragon gale are static fire/wind damages. Easily stacked -together-. There are attributes that each have better than the other, in fact, PG is way more deadlier if you bring in factors such as Charge Weapons. -- Anyway, as far as the AD suggestions go, it will still fully boost basic attack skills, namely the ones in the Duelist Tree anyway. Which is fine and all, if PG gets a necessary fix.

[Grandpa]

I don't have much to offer that hasn't been said already, but.

First, setting PG to be a ghost skill rather than a duelist skill is a very good start. Might promote more ghosts?
Second, an FP increase is definitely needed, even as a promoted class skill. It's too strong to not, honestly.
Third, while crits are very strong with PG, and common to boot, I think I would be fine with them with the fp increase. I'm neutral on that subject, though. Could go either way.
Fourth, my opinion on absolute death is that it should effect basic attacks and kensei skills only. If crits are removed from PG, I would be fine if AD effected it.
Finally, I like the idea of PG being changed to be a sword or axe skill. If it's for Ghosts, that is. Axes need more love for them, and this is a step in the right direction I believe.