[Autumn]

" Remove momentum gain from Critical hits completely, change Fleur's effect to a completely new one to balance this out."

A solution like this would gut many DPS builds, and thus make the tank sustain meta even more prominent. I'd rather just see Fluer have a different etfect, such as making one's very first attack with a sword or spear ignore an enemy's armor, instead of a drastic, singular change like the one suggested.

Exactly, this is my issue, I don't want to completely gut a class simply because it's main gimmick is too powerful, duelist has always just been there, and there's not much you can do numbers wise to balance Fleur because simply put, it is a very simple but very VERY effective skill, the balance discussion is up more so for gaining an opinion on what makes Duelist so powerful in it's own right and fleur seems to be raised up a lot.

My main issue with Duelist is that Fleur is way to good. Anything that affects momentum, as a whole, if powerful. Hell, you can make the gap between turn momentum even more astoundingly huge if you use such weapons as a Ryeser, or even a tome to booksmack someone. Don't need to do much more than simply be faster and hit with the tome, but that's beside the point. Here's a, rather simple, interaction of how momentum works between a normal player and someone without fleur.

A FLEUR user who gets knocked down gets a whopping 4 momentum. This can be chained into ONE fleur crit to get 6 M. If they use an offhand weapon, they can do that again to get an (astounding) 8 momentum, despite being KD'd that turn. A normal person who crits will only be able to get the one crit, and then will have to use the 2m on something else, or simply let it be destroyed by turn ending.

Fleur lets a Duelist simply wield one weapon and get the benefits of hitting a crit chance with both main hand and offhand.. just from a 1 sp skill. It isn't even a main class skill.

Hell, if we look at a certain class (Rogue) and their main class skill Dagger dance. It's almost identical to Fleur. However it requires 2 hit checks, 2 crit checks, AND requires you to dual wield daggers to give the +2 momentum at the cost of performing 2 hits for 3M (with one severely lower in damage). This is counterable by simply.. Using Cripple Arm to get rid of their off-hand dagger. Using something that gives yourself retaliation damage.. etc.

Fleur there is no 'counter' to that that's reliable besides "pray to RNG gods that your BK priest with 50 FAI/LUC/BK/Boneheart can not get crit. I'm on board with either reworking FLEUR as a whole, or simply limiting crits to only give +2 momentum at maximum a turn. Which won't actually solve anything, but hey. It's somewhat of a start.

I guess we've come to a consensus on the problem about Duelist, and that is Fleur, but how can you balance +1 more momentum per crit? Simply reworking the skill seems to be the best option, I'd be more down for a suggestion that removes the +1m and instead, as Egil suggested, makes you ignore enemy armor on critical hit(and maybe, only maybe on the first time you do critically hit), this would encourage duelists to dual wield even more so I believe, as critically hitting with both weapons lets you take an additional action.

I've gone over this with a few people but main classing duelist is already the go-to, I don't think slapping on 'main class only' to fleur would help the problem presented with it either, I truly believe it needs a bit of a rework since the introduction of being able to gain momentum off of both of your weapon's critical hits.

(Fleur)The first critical hit per round will always ignore enemy armor.

Alternatively I thought up another thing whilst going to the store.

(Fleur)A flowery style adopted by duelists alike, when you land a critical hit you will mark your target, and when you score another critical hit with any duelist skill, you will deal wind damage equal to your wind ATK.

Various ideas just being thrown out there, for anyone who likes them.