[Autumn]

I run a BK/DH Matador build with a focus on damage and tanking. My RES sits just short of 50%, and even then the Magical damage I take ranges from absurd to complete doom. I could easily take Cobra to fight Magic users, for sure - but that would mean that I would have to change up my entire build for that to happen to begin with. Cobra requires high dodge to be able to reliably dodge always, thus meaning I need to spend a lot of points into CEL and LUC, and change equipment to meet a certain threshold. That's where I would say this point falls. How can I counter magic with Cobra if that would mean I'd have to give up tanking? That alone makes the build not viable, but I'll get to that point more in-depth soon.

Not building for cobra is completely understandable, considering as a destiny soldier (especially DH/BK) I can see you needing to explore different options in order to mitigate the amount of punishment you'd be otherwise taking from magic, magical damage is VERY strong currently, as it should be really though, almost everyone needs to deal with its damage output regardless, some new traits actually help out quite a lot versus magic as they usually lack multi hits that do a lot of damage, like Arcane Barrier.

If I can't kite a mage, I'll be eating up all the damage they deal to me. If I try to kite a mage, they'll catch up easily and dish out the damage that even with 50% RES I struggle to survive. Black Knight is terrible at the cat and mouse game, and specially when you're meant to be the cat and you're forced to run. Retreating Swipe is incredibly good for movement, I won't lie, despite the Momentum it eats up. Winged Serpent is likewise good if you've spared some points for Cobra. Retaliate and Hanging won't help you kite, though. Even with near 50% RES, Magic damage is my bane, no matter where it comes from. Be it a Kadouha with nearly no light attack built and such.

It's telling that BK struggles with Magic damage from anyone who isn't slower than you (and that's a lot of people we're talking about) while Martial Artist gets plenty of damage reduction for both physical and magic damage. When the class that is supposed to tank gets outdone at tanking by the mobile class, there's a problem to be found there, but perhaps an issue of it's own.

One thing needed in the match-up is knowing proper spacing, as brought up earlier a soldier class tends to have incredibly powerful movement abilities, charge covers a very large distance and charging strike exists to compliment this immensely, often giving you the tools to be able to play the spacing game, even rivaling that of ranger and arbalest, shinken and retreating swipe both serve as fine examples of this, especially with Shinken's amazing elemental impacts, this can be used in place of approaching, making folk approach you instead, soldiers have several options available to them.

The point being that from afar with stuff like shinken and retreating swipe, a mage is forced to spend momentum to come to you, which is not often something they want to do in any team fight, given that usually being in the crowd tends to mean instant death to just about anyone nowadays, as for 1v1s I very much dislike the idea of solely balancing the game around them since they will be often be rock paper scissors among the people who know what they're doing anyway, but for the sake of the topic I'll keep to that.

Every build is going to have some sort of weakness regardless, covering as many as you can as a tank is often quite inspired, I suggest using an elemental resistance shield versus mages, the combination of Bulwark, Guard and elemental resistance serves as an extremely effective tool to surviving against them, a two handed knight spec'd against phys however should not be running toe to toe with a dedicated mage, their ilk is way more suited against physical damage dealers like duelists, which often enough monks struggle with on their own, they're not as perfect of a tanking class as you'd think.

There's a difference between a counter and complete doom. I've fought classes that counter me before, and it's fair to say that the odds are tilted way in their favor than in mine - but those are fights I can still win if I manage to outplay whoever I'm fighting. Then, much like I mentioned in a previous thread with MG shells, there's complete doom. Bringing up the example I did back then; when an MG starts spamming ice bullets at me, that's the end of the entire fight for me. I can't move and I'm forced to sit around for a good few rounds taking damage until I die.

Fighting a Mage, Evokers specifically, feels much the same to me. There's only so much running I can do when I'm one turn away of taking 800 damage. By no means I say that BK should become Evoker's counter just because I find myself getting nuked every time I fight one, but the fact that there's not really much you can do about is why I made this thread to begin with. Magic should be a counter to Black Knight, but not so in a way that means it's a game over from round 0. Even folks that run Winged Serpent face a hard time against magic as I do.

I don't see how folk with Snake Dancer or Winged serpent should be having nearly as much trouble as you are versus mages, as I think snake dancer and winged serpent do an excellent enough job at keeping them at bay, especially when used in conjunction with one another, you brought up 'complete doom' like scenarios, while they are very rare nowadays they can still exist I can agree with that, but the problem that lies in with that is that you either did not cover that weakness or you let it happen in the first place, veering off to the side slightly here but celicus shell is its own special kind of bullshit, unavoidable like most charge minded spells are.

My expectation is not to stomp my hard counters, my expectation is to not be wiped a round or so in. I'm no PVP savant; even I know that it plays like rock paper scissors.

Perhaps saying Silence is required is mistaken, I can say that much. Silence can still be played against fairly easily. In the case of a Destiny Mage, a Heron Feather can make a good difference. And though a perhaps worse example, considering the context of this thread, a Curate can outright cure and become immune to Silence right away.

The point I'm trying to make here is that how terribly weak BK/DH plays out against some classes is just outright pitiful. Again, I understand the concept of counters. But being outright doomed from the start feels like it shouldn't be a thing to begin with. The PVP system feels like it was designed to play in 4v4s where everyone fulfills a different role rather than 1v1s, where it's a gamble to see who you have to fight.

I stand firm on the point that Black Knight needs at least a way to fight a mage. From the countless fights I've done against mages and with the RES I have already, the damage I seem to be taking is still absurd. Whether Silence is the way to go about it or not is up for debate still.

Its great that you've acknowledged that BKs don't quite need a silence, since in my honest opinion that shouldn't be the case, instead of shoe-horning in a meta offensive effect for them when you could instead offer them defensive options such as more shield skills, DH/BK is far from a bad class combo, they have really good damage and superior mobility, they often flip physical damage builds such as duelists and VAs onto their back and make it a living hell, such is the way you're talking about the mage match-up, evokers specifically are not in a good spot when faced with better players as they play out the exact same way in any given fight. I tend to attribute evoker to being the skill/knowledge wall for this game, as literally anyone can beat them now with the tools they are provided, if you can't beat a dedicated evoker in a 1v1, you played the match-up wrong. (This of course can change given other setups, given those evokers cover their weaknesses with other classes.)

I'd argue that currently destiny soldier is one of the better picks to be playing right now, given its amazing 1v1 potential and its solid pressure in a team fight, as well as the options that are open to it in any given fight, it comes with the weakness versus magic but the strength versus physical damage, you just need to explore different options to make magic less of a hassle to fight against, here's some I'd suggest without simply just suggesting to change your class combo:

-Grabbing magic stones and cleanse potions, namely Requinite and Morganite, requinite can purge charge mind, elemental enchants and HSDW, which can be essential to surviving against a mage.

-Nabbing yourself a shield, I'll say it again, my pure tanks end up surviving and beating a lot of mages due to how good bulwark + guard is, its damage reduction is severely under rated.

-Learning more about the spacing of what you are facing., mages can sometimes be attributed to having the exact same range as you, not a lot of spells actually reach disgustingly far anymore, save for a few.