01-10-2020, 06:56 PM
Oh boy.
Squishies have been slowly pushed back over time, that much I agree with you on, but I disagree on this being the right way to go about giving equal footing between the playstyles. First we should look at the two and how they operate :
Tanks operate by building flat defence and res, both of those can contribute offensively in some classes, and this playstyle far favours building for autohits, rebelling weapon and huge blade ect. Generally, this will make you more survivable, but lock you from basic hitting in most scenarios, unless you are willing to hit stack with sub-optimal success, or use a weapon that scales heavily from skill. We all have the same 240-ish points at the end of the day, the same limitations from becoming a mary sue. Primary tanks will usually have a parry skill, damage that scales from a defensive stat or something they have a fair chunk off, and a swagouged weapon of somewhere around 130 - 160 swa. Earth-voker BK would be an example of a strong tank, often able to achieve multi ele res and a phys resist, with some modest amount of C.E. Armour is something almost universally had, 25 being a noticeable chip and 40 being a pain in the ass survivability wise. An example of a poor tank however, would be a boxer, your hexer, anything with the inability to soften blows or have lacking defensive utility. Defense as a stat can only take you so far...
Dodgers, more affectionately described as squishies, forego defense, and build celerity instead. Consider this more a chance dr, as people with enough hit can bypass your defence, rather than a tanks more set in stone durability. This will -usually- be about 30 DR or 30 def / res worth, so you are automatically going to be taking more damage than a similarly stacked tank. What do you get for this? Crits. Crit evade, initiative and your two elements. It is my opinion that squishies are not underpowered per say, but shoehorned into picking up that Fleur. Without devolving into another Class V Class argument, Having the ability to hit multiple times in a turn come from a defensive stat is very lucrative, especially when paired with a weapon such as tarnada and a skill such as claret call. Provided a fleur duelist can crit? They can be downright oppressive to tanks lacking in crit evade. This--I believe, is the biggest advantage dodgies have.
Cobra would be the second. You have up to 100 DR from the front, provided you are able to proc Evasion! When paired with a momentum efficient class (Duelist again, you bet.)You're looking at 9 momentum / turn while the unfortunate sod fighting you is having to waste momentum either moving to your back or debuffing you, often leaving them with 4 momentum to harm you.
The third big defensive option dodgies have, which admittedly is not exclusive to such a playstyle, is DR stacking. This will be your bonder, Ogata, Wraithguard or what have you. Due to the nature of multiplicative DR, this will play more of an advantage for your 'forged from glass' ass than someone made of steel, even if you end up with about four armour. It's not unreasonable to hit a global 50 DR with 10~ def and res and a 10DR boost, but your lack of armour is still going to hurt.
As you noted, the question isn't so much how to make a dodge build viable for PVP, but how you do it avoiding these playstyles.Evasion builds generally performing worse than tank builds for a fair few classes is likely due to the same classes lacking in defensive options, rather than a statement about the relative stats. Offering classes hit bonuses only goes so far, 270 being the minimum bar for entry if you intend to not miss requires at least some Skill and Luc on your part, some skill and luck that some classes straight up can't afford to build for--Even if I do long for more varied scalings on weapons.
Because of this, I don't think changing Evasion! as you say would remedy this, rather that the classes themselves will need some form ulterior defense, either that or accept some form of rudimentary rock paper scissors of Tank Dodge and Mage gameplay, which I am certain nobody wants.
TLDR : I believe it's more a class and variety issue rather than a playstyle one.
Squishies have been slowly pushed back over time, that much I agree with you on, but I disagree on this being the right way to go about giving equal footing between the playstyles. First we should look at the two and how they operate :
Tanks operate by building flat defence and res, both of those can contribute offensively in some classes, and this playstyle far favours building for autohits, rebelling weapon and huge blade ect. Generally, this will make you more survivable, but lock you from basic hitting in most scenarios, unless you are willing to hit stack with sub-optimal success, or use a weapon that scales heavily from skill. We all have the same 240-ish points at the end of the day, the same limitations from becoming a mary sue. Primary tanks will usually have a parry skill, damage that scales from a defensive stat or something they have a fair chunk off, and a swagouged weapon of somewhere around 130 - 160 swa. Earth-voker BK would be an example of a strong tank, often able to achieve multi ele res and a phys resist, with some modest amount of C.E. Armour is something almost universally had, 25 being a noticeable chip and 40 being a pain in the ass survivability wise. An example of a poor tank however, would be a boxer, your hexer, anything with the inability to soften blows or have lacking defensive utility. Defense as a stat can only take you so far...
Dodgers, more affectionately described as squishies, forego defense, and build celerity instead. Consider this more a chance dr, as people with enough hit can bypass your defence, rather than a tanks more set in stone durability. This will -usually- be about 30 DR or 30 def / res worth, so you are automatically going to be taking more damage than a similarly stacked tank. What do you get for this? Crits. Crit evade, initiative and your two elements. It is my opinion that squishies are not underpowered per say, but shoehorned into picking up that Fleur. Without devolving into another Class V Class argument, Having the ability to hit multiple times in a turn come from a defensive stat is very lucrative, especially when paired with a weapon such as tarnada and a skill such as claret call. Provided a fleur duelist can crit? They can be downright oppressive to tanks lacking in crit evade. This--I believe, is the biggest advantage dodgies have.
Cobra would be the second. You have up to 100 DR from the front, provided you are able to proc Evasion! When paired with a momentum efficient class (Duelist again, you bet.)You're looking at 9 momentum / turn while the unfortunate sod fighting you is having to waste momentum either moving to your back or debuffing you, often leaving them with 4 momentum to harm you.
The third big defensive option dodgies have, which admittedly is not exclusive to such a playstyle, is DR stacking. This will be your bonder, Ogata, Wraithguard or what have you. Due to the nature of multiplicative DR, this will play more of an advantage for your 'forged from glass' ass than someone made of steel, even if you end up with about four armour. It's not unreasonable to hit a global 50 DR with 10~ def and res and a 10DR boost, but your lack of armour is still going to hurt.
As you noted, the question isn't so much how to make a dodge build viable for PVP, but how you do it avoiding these playstyles.
Because of this, I don't think changing Evasion! as you say would remedy this, rather that the classes themselves will need some form ulterior defense, either that or accept some form of rudimentary rock paper scissors of Tank Dodge and Mage gameplay, which I am certain nobody wants.
TLDR : I believe it's more a class and variety issue rather than a playstyle one.
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