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GR2
#4
Alright, since I have a lot of my own opinions and such on the subject matter here as someone who spends an unhealthy amount toying with this game's systems, I'll go in order based on the original post's main points. Just remember these are opinions, as is every discussion on this sensitive topic, as mine might differ from yours.

Evade Viability 

The numbers being as skewed as they are is my primary reason overall for my distaste for the new evade system. Outside numbers retuning on existing hit/evade buffs, very little has been done to the classes in a way to balance out the hit/evade race. While even back in GR1 people gravitated towards certain classes for whatever was meta at the time, GR2 has been something more of an extreme case. This is due to how the Hit/Eva imbalance allows properly supported kits such as FB, BK, and Bonder to name a few the ability to have more free-form stats, SKI not being as important. I like to personally dub these classes "Hit" classes, or classes that provide the proper hit support needed to function in such a system comfortably whether that be hit numbers, or evasion ignores.

As stated in the topic post, this creates a system where a large majority of classes can do nothing but roll (often rigged) dice, there's not much interaction going on here. The wild variance in these values also create a game that quickly spirals into a completely one sided matchup, in the fully buffed dodgy's favor if the opponent has sub-240 hit, or in the attacker's advantage if they have 250 hit or more. Speaking of that, the numbers presented in the table assume FULL EVADE BUFFS, and even then, you're never reaching more than 215-220 evade with just buffs alone, you need debuffs to go past that (and there's even less support for that in this game currently). Meanwhile, most hit buffs are PASSIVE, meaning there's no real momentum upkeep cost. Flatfoot is a 0-1m application, blessed/bloodhunt are free, class hit passives are free, etc. Most evade buffs however are a 3 momentum investment in most cases for a 3-5 turn buff typically. Other evade buffs such as Miragewalk and Unarmored Prowess can be applied passively, but only last a single attack or require select classes or circumstances to be used.

What this means is that a dodge build will always face a momentum tax in order to "play the game", and even at that highest potential, they still lose to a hit stacker (Which is just about everyone in the current meta). This along with the sheer investment needed in CEL in the first place makes it very limiting to build for. Using the above numbers, let's assume a fully buffed dodge averages 210 evade, and the average attacker is using 250 hit. This nets roughly a 50% net DR according to the math, which seems fine at a glance (pun totally intended), but in practice results in a net loss for the dodge build as they have to often spend 3-6 momentum every 5 turns to keep that up vs the passive nature of that 250 hit. In many build experiments I've done over the past few months to get a taste for these numbers in practice, the amount of investment needed is often straight up not worth building over DEF/RES in many cases (For PvP). Before I get lynched for saying this, hear me out:

Dodge in its current incarnation is simply a "stat check" in a sense that it just effectively automatically wins against setups unable to reach the hit numbers needed to win, or have adequate amounts of evasion ignores to deal with it. It's a concept I've seen in other games as a "win more" stat in the sense it only really enables you to bully builds that would have been likely ill prepared to deal with you in the first case. The major exception to this trend is Youkai, who bully tank setups quite heavily due to the sheer momentum advantage summoners hold. I cite this very momentum economy as to why dodge feels so miserable to play, you lose a lot of momentum and stat investment for something that often straight up doesn't matter in many matchups. A well stacked armor tank (it's own issue of balance) matches or outperforms on the DR front in nearly every normal situation using the average 250 hit this meta sees, as no dodge will ever get above 215 evade without niche shenanigans. This is further a issue when CEL requires nearly the same investment as a DEF/RES user stat-wise (If not more!) in order to have a DR. Evade is unreliable to the point where running absolutely no DR option results in oftentimes superior results, as at least you can then try your hand at completely winning the damage race instead of hoping your evade gamble pays off in a system rigged against it. 

TLDR: Current class balance is ill suited for this kind of system, leading to both dodge players to be upset at how their choice of DR is largely meaningless much of the time, and for everyone else because dodge if not kept in check is so utterly broken that you HAVE to play the hit/evade game, ruining build diversity as a whole.


Weapon Accuracy

Being stuck a 90 base hit is indeed a death sentence in such a system in many cases against a dodge, especially when you factor in that you also lose your hit enchant for said attacks. This creates not a 10-20 hit deficit, but a 40+ one. With the provided math in the topic post, it's not hard to see why this is often damning. 



Racial Bases

Not a terribly large issue compared to other points, but it can definitely make or break some setups due to scaling, usually for dodge builds. Largely a consequence of buff caps, as it means base values from stats and gear are even more important than ever.


Class Viability

If you read my thoughts on the evade viability section, you'll probably know what to expect from me here. Ideally, EVERY class should be a hit/evade class, or enough in a sense that every class has at least some means of playing the hit/evade game. I do agree that BK is actually a good benchmark of what a class should have in terms of mechanical support for such a thing. If class hit/evade balance gets fixed, we'd immediately start seeing classes other than the same five or six being used.


Weapon Scalings 

Weapon scaling changes are one of the reasons I don't call GR2 entirely bad. The generalization of scaling along with general nerfs to overall scalings was a good change that makes building a lot simpler. The main cause of concern here though is the lack of weapon identity, since base weapon stats and effects are so much more important now than scalings as topic creator pointed out. This makes it so many weapons are still the immediate go-to in many cases (mostly 7*+s), such as the Anchor for axes, since it's a case of "Oh, this axe has extra range and more crit while having the same stats as nearly every other axe, no reason not to use this". Logically, makes sense if rarity is to = power, but personally I find it boring. Rebelling used to be the main thing to justify lower rarity weapons, but in GR2 even after buffs, it's an absolute joke of an enchant (You not only give up a hit enchant, but you actively LOSE hit). The solution to this isn't so clear honestly, but I think a nice start is to make the no-effect weapons more desirable stat-wise (more hit/crit/etc) compared to weapons with effects as to make them even considered. 

As for some slightly related personal thoughts on weapons, STR weapons could stand to see slightly more crit mod built into weapons as to not be completely overshadowed basic attack-wise by guns/daggers. Also stressed this before in several balance-fus, but bows all being 100-70% STR is AAAAAAAAH in combination with the other system changes made. Personally would like to see bows make use of some of the other scaling modifiers if STR is to stay as to give some diversity, like the element + dextria combos tomes see a good amount of. Heck, that could be a interesting way to make the bland weapons in other weapon types more interesting too.


SKI Tax

Good idea in concept, icky in practice largely due to the prior evade issues. Stat taxing is just like taxes in real life to a degree, it doesn't do much to affect the rich (BKs, Bonders, etc), but severely punishes the poor (DH, Pure Lightning Crit Mages, etc). This only serves to widen the gap between the meta picks from the other classes in this system, as having more options in building is more fun to people. SKI taxes discourage exotic setups on non-meta classes simply because it means you can't afford other key stats otherwise. SKI is not an option, it's build in high amounts or die to the first dodge build you see. SAN builds have consequently fell off the face of the planet as stated, only really being made use of if said racials give stats to make up for it....  or you're playing a "hit" class that can carry one statwise-  hence my rich/poor tax comparison. 

On the topic of taxes, luck as a stat is kind of one of these now, for basic attackers/lightning critters I mean. The removal of hit/evade was very necessary to avoid a double universal tax, but the stat as a whole now feels very weak for those still forced to build it. It gives 1 crit and 1 crit eva, and that's it for actual battle application. Crit is cheesable by other means (Hexer says hi), so people will often rely on those external mods and minimize the luck they can build. Crit evade is nice, but FAI completely and utterly outclasses Luck here as I pointed out in another balance-fu post, so you will almost never see a non crit build use Luck. 


Riposte

Turn order and riposte with the round robin system has always been a bit screwy. This situation only really often applies with youkai/bots due to them always moving last, and builds with high initiative (man, dodge can't catch a break).

Gonna go off on a side point I didn't see brought up that this circumstance reminded me of, and that is how initiative is often detrimental rather than helpful. Riposte on a speedy char puts you at risk of getting double turned, which is why many dodge duelist unequip the skill. Being fast also means that many threats can't be responded to until it's too late. Two big dangers dodge builds face constantly is the evasion ignoring Explosion and Dancing Water. Both these skills are too effective at smacking dodge because the dodge build in question CAN'T REACT TO IT. They just have to eat the full damage.... with no DR... which then stacks said opponent's bloodhunt hit. Another point against dodge, which is silly because slower tanks can react and counterplay these things.
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Messages In This Thread
GR2 - by FatherCrixius - 05-29-2022, 06:03 PM
RE: GR2 - by Lolzytripd - 05-29-2022, 07:01 PM
RE: GR2 - by Fern - 05-29-2022, 09:02 PM
RE: GR2 - by InsainArcaneBirdbrain - 05-30-2022, 06:57 AM
RE: GR2 - by FatherCrixius - 05-30-2022, 11:31 AM
RE: GR2 - by Druby - 06-07-2022, 06:36 PM
RE: GR2 - by FatherCrixius - 06-09-2022, 08:22 PM
RE: GR2 - by Fern - 06-07-2022, 07:53 PM
RE: GR2 - by sadbot - 06-08-2022, 12:37 AM
RE: GR2 - by Kiss - 06-09-2022, 01:22 AM
RE: GR2 - by Sawrock - 06-09-2022, 01:33 AM
RE: GR2 - by Senna - 06-10-2022, 07:10 PM
RE: GR2 - by Shujin - 06-09-2022, 12:03 PM
RE: GR2 - by Shujin - 06-10-2022, 09:25 PM
RE: GR2 - by Lolzytripd - 06-12-2022, 07:14 AM

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