[Shujin]

I don't want to derail the topic too much, but since the subject of IC wars came up, I wanted to offer my perspective.

I agree that this community has BECOME not ready for these events. But I 100% blame the GM team for at least parts of it, for being too handholdey, protective and spoiling these kind of people so much that they could invoke powers of Time reversal or Godhod or Ultrainstinct Autonomous Consequnce Dodge, based on how hard they cried so that it became a valid strategy to save your character from another character, no matter how deserved it ICly was. The GM team shouldn't exist to Veto or prevent RP, they should only exist to ensure things go according to the rules and as fair as possible. (And not change or make up rules, based on how they feel at that moment. Don't act as if you don't.)

I don't think the community ever was 'ready' for them, beyond the very start of Korvara. Even back then, there were a lot of loud voices that came out at the first sign of a larger scale conflict brewing.

Ultimately the GM team doesn't actively try to veto RP; they are trying to keep things fair. Sometimes, people RP in an uninteractive way, sometimes they metagame or abuse alts/pets. Not referring to any specific situation, but there have been several cases like that.

What I am trying to say is...That this enviorment for no Wars or ANY negative conflict, even when some clearly want this conflict, is based on a simple double standard mentality. "Good" characters will always benefit IC and OOC, while "Evil" characters will always suffer as they are not seen equal as Characters, yet they are very much needed to prevent staleness and need the help the most. GM's rule very often based on Emotions based on that, I feel. Its high time, there are more places detached from the 4 nations, with clear rules that they are not as handholdey by design, and let people go there if they want more "mean" Rp, without the protection. Then these that enjoy this can live in their bubble without dragging people that do not want that in. Probably the most healthy solution, even if not perfect.

I don't believe that it's based on any double standard. People are averse to wars because of the major conflicts in memory, such as Fairview or Geladyne vs Meiaquar.

This isn't because the IC situation didn't make sense, or because there wasn't a system in place preventing it from progressing. It's because there was a lot of OOC toxicity, often over petty things. This is the case almost any time 'big' conflict comes up. It doesn't matter what or where it is, or what the stakes are. It doesn't matter if both sides have a firm agreement on how things will go beforehand (like in Fairview, or even the Marauders), or not.

All it takes is one big argument and the shine is off the apple. I know in situations where ICly, I have been the catalyst for conflict, and people loudly complain OOC (be it over valid points or not), I typically lose interest in pursuing it much further - if anything stifles wars or conflict in general, it's that. No one wants to engage when people behave this way and make the experience miserable.

While adding areas like Law's End that offer a different experience than the existing nations is a potentially good idea, doing so under the motivation of creating spaces where 'things really matter here, and you can do everything people would whine about elsewhere' is not. First of all, let's be real - people are still going to complain.

Second, and more importantly, creating isolated areas with wildly different OOC expectations is harmful to the RP environment, because it makes it less immersive, among other reasons.

Well when I speak about the Community having been ready, then I talk about older times, where we had deadly encounters all the time, in G6. Primarily in Laws End, but not Exclusive to it. 
Bloeden, The Vampire Cult, The Church that hunted that Vampire cult, Voilegardes first Mayors group (probably still to this date, the people that pulled of their schemes the best, while staying out of the spotlight.), Shivanias group, The Blackguards and countless random encounters and smaller groups. I believe during that time you weren't as involved with the Community and the RP, or at the very least, thats what everyone said, that you do not actually play the game. (which by the way, I think is very cool that you do now at times. cause that gives you some insight on firsthand basis.)
We had all out Wars, and they were amazing. Some of my best memories in SL2, and while admittedly sometimes there was some unhappiness or smaller OOC Arguments? It was never in the scale that we see nowadays in Korvara. And usually those arguments were sorted out fairly. We weren't Murderhobos afterall, more often than not, did we let people leave to progress the story and only if someone truly pushed boundaries or was being a shit both IC and OOC, did we even consider Death. 


This did however stop once things slowly became more Event-driven, where the big bads were always either throwaway Villians or a Long Plotline like the Joker Series (though in the early stages they were with Fern as a Player and they were also Encounters with deadly possibilities or at the very least very negative consequences.), people were conditioned to 'win', No longer was it needed to engage with weird other Content like Laws End and actually risk your life and character, cause all 'real' content was now behind events, such as the Black Falcons and that eventline. These events, rather than player events, where SO important that we even used it as Excuse to Change the Cellsvich map. Up to that point we only saw that a single time, where players did something and it had visible impact on the world, and that was Voilegarde's ghost town being turned into...Well Voilegarde

Meanwhile "Evil" Characters, could A.) Not participate in those events realistically, cause why would they? and B.) They were effectively banned from all RP, because all RP was in Sigrogana anyway, so if they wanted to do anagonistic stuff, you better believe that 40 people were on their butts, not exaggerating. That happend. We had so many fights were like 3-4 people had to fight off 30+ people. Eventually that lead to the rule being added that one group only needs to defeat 2 groups max. but then they can only escape after-> The 2 groups that lost had no consequences, while the Antagonist would very likly be executed when taken in. So This was also never fair, cause only one side played with their life on the line.

There are many more of such examples. Anatagonistic Characters are always treated like lesser characters and people have the expectations that they HAVE TO win against them. If the Anagonists Win, suddenly the whining starts. Which I understand when the Situation was forced on them, consent is important, but I feel people do that even when the prior to it agreed to it OOCly. I have seen that a lot in Korvara, when I was running around with Sawrock and Polk. We always asked if they are okay with it. 
So yeah I do honestly think this is a Double Standard. The good ones always want to win, and expect the 'bad' to die but the when its the other way around they are suddenly up in arms and complain very loudy. And in my experience thats also the way GM's rule it. 
Favorite Example for this is:
->GM gets called to a fight. Its 2 Versus 10 (the 10 waited untill none of the first group were online)
->GM Says: make this fair, its in the rules, no deadly encounter
->Fight ensues 'fairly' 2 versus 4->the two lose obviously(had to probably fight the others after anyway, so there was never a chance)
->Get taken in and then executed.

I am not sure where the fairness was in this, nor how this wasn't a deadly encounter. But it happend.


I feel we are currently in the very same stage, that we have been in the end of G6, which is no surprise. Cause the conditioning is still in, lots of people have SL2 as their first RP and never even played other Roleplaying Games, where death is very real or concequnces in general...And many also do not want that, which is totally fair. Which is, why in my opinion the only healthy way is to seperate people that do and do not want to with such places. Because that way, people can give non verbal consent, and everyone knows just by seeing them in such an area "Oh yeah, we are on the same page here!" So I don't know what to say really, its not an as easy Fix. There is also no point in just adding a "Laws End" like place, if there is nothing going on there. No reason for wanting to be there, ICly. But I think thats a general problem of how little infos or weight is put in Lore and RP concequnces, and would need enitre systems in place so everyone is on the same page about Military strength, economy and other things that are very important to the Roleplay. Important resources, or other such things. Reason for people that might want to step out of their comfort zone to engage with these things. Not an empty Sandbox like Laws End, where you couldn't even change at all.

But I am a firm Believer that Roleplay SHOULD matter. And so far I do not feel like anything matters in SL2 over Slice of Life and empty buildings.
Whats the point of RPing R&D, when R&D can not Research and Develope outside of what make believe everyone else can just decide on doing.
We as Players, only have TWO ways to interact with the world and ourselves-> Basic Rp and PVP. and I guess technically Map Requests, but I also argue whats the point of bloating the Map with 100 places if none of them serve a purpose other than to be a hangout spot for that group. Its nice to have, but at that point whats the difference between Private housing? 
And PVP follows the problems I mentioned above if its stakes are actually higher than just a friendly spar.

I just wish we could interact and engage more with the world. I am just some dude in Real Life, It would be cool if I could be a little bit more than that in a Make Believe Fantasy World, without trying to compete with someone else for a Position of Leadership or anything. I don't want the Burger King Crown. I want organic world-building and expansion. Cooperative RP, moving towards new goals, even if it takes a long while. Perspective, a carrot dangling infront of me, to steal the last statement from the other thread. I think that would be really cool, even though I also understand that opening such things is maybe scary, given that maybe everyone would want that then.
But is it really that bad, that people can collectively do something to enrich the world? I think with proper Guidelines, thats not an impossible ask. We get new things all the times, but at the moemnt entirely disconnected from any RP and feels 'random'. New weapon in the Dungeons, Awkward Gremlin suddenly has new recipes... I think the latter could very easily be done by players, to give them the "We did that!" to point back to, in 5 years.

You are obviously correct though that there were many more reasons why the Wars felt bad. The one below is why it felt horrible to me, even though I like conflict.
[quote pid='56295' dateline='1723437934']

If folks wish to ever move forward with conflict in RP environments they need to accept and understand that it is not something you inflict upon others, and is something you work on with others. Like a wrestling match, otherwise you will find much like in wrestling. If you do not work together. No one will be willing to work with you.

[/quote]
I agree with your Sentiment, but I have not made these Expereinces. While we all know the 2ed war was overall a load of negativity all around and No one enjoyed it...Its also my prime example for why what you say, Is Simply not true or based on facts.

Let me summarize some things from my personal Expereince, and you tell me if that wasn't working with the people instead of against them.

Storyline starts, very long before the War, I'd say atleast half a year before that, relatively at the beginning of Dahlias Rule:
-Character is getting themselves hired by them, to work as a Spy. technically double spy, cause their end goal is to Help Meiaquar.
-Character proceeds to be the spy, and works in Meiaquar.
-Things proceed, Dahlia hates Donna, so she begins plotting against them
-Spy asks, if they should work together with anyone else in Meiaquar, since she knows there were more than one Spy
-Is being pointed in the Direction of the Master of Coin (Important-> Indirect info that they might be a spy too)
-Works with Master of Coin finds out they are also from Geladyian, so checks out with the assumtion above
-Master of Coin and Spy become friends and pretty close, so Spy is talking with them in serval political meetings.
-Finds out that Basically every Nation hates Meiaquar, and refuses to even interact with them (Spy a patriot to Meiaquar, as a Nation. Does everything so the Nation can strive. So this i bad)
-Spy has a few meetings with Dahlia, and basically get the mission to get rid of the Donna.
-Meeting Happens, where the Geladyne was so fed up with Meiaquar, that they gave them an Ultimatum to hand over the piece of land or fight them in a war. Spy knows for a fact we stand no chance in the war and suggests that maybe we should just count our losses and hand it over instead of risking our peoples lives and risk more happening.
-Don and Donna proceed with the War. (Obviously, Spy is not happy about that, cause thats a War they couldn't possibly win.)
-Spy offers to Dahlia if she might step down on the War, if she brings her the Don's. Dahlia was fine with just the Donna to consider going easy.
-Stuff proceeds, Things are being guided and manipulated so that the Donna steps down and the Master of Coin becomes the next Donna.
-We Communicated OOCly with Croakie to attempt and see if we could come to some agreement, the moment we just mentioned to use her as a bargainship, she threw a hissy fit and blocked us. So that storythread goes nowhere. (In my opinion, since we had her basically in our hands, Admins should have allowed us to just hand her over ICly. She effectively just avoided the RP and all the consequences. But we moved on.)
-Things are being orchestered by either trying to ask for help from Fairview or Telegard-> Both don't give a shit what happens to the Don's. (Reaffirmation that Meiaquars Leadership is the problem, ICly)
-So next on the line, with all other Options exhausted, the plot moved to "Well guess we Assassinate Bruno then and end the war".
-so manipulation began to happen, people were gathered that were also unhappy about it and at the end of the Talks, we had atleast 15+ people that wanted to ACTIVELY do something, and another big group that didn't want to be mentioned, were there for passive support.
-Spy and Vesuvio work together-> Vesuvio becomes Guard Captain (all part of the storyline and by design.)
-Della for some reason changing her complete character and decides to become a Psychopath ICly. I up to this point do not understand why.
-Even attacks Spy, cause trust issues, but lets them live.
-Spy decides that maybe its time to not let the person she pretty much knows to be a Geladyian spy to proceed, if they are not being cooperative and litterally went batshit insane.(If you read the other brackets, you might see why this assumtion wasn't so far fetched, given Dahlia litterally told them to work together. She did everything but spell it out for them)
-Open Forum happend, we gave Bruno a chance to step down ICly, he refused.

Take a guess what happens next? Up to this point the whole thing was a great storyline, including many many people. Highstakes. Everything was going according to RP, with all the hiccups and unexpected things included.

-Spy takes the infos they have and begin to manipulate people regarding it
  ->GM chime in and threaten to ban me, for Metagaming? 
Which realisitcally doesn't matter, even if I DIDN'T know the things I knew ICly. It was the most reasonable and easiest way to manipulate the masses so even if it was a lie, it should have been legit IC.

->We proceed with the assassination plan as we are left with no Options with the 15+ players.
->Rules state that Nation Leaders are always DL4 and have no such protection.
->Me an actually nice guy, asks admins to overlook this to make it Fair and have it make sense. Cause  I want that RP to play out Nicely
->Admins change the rule, suddenly we need 'Reasoning' and a normal ticket like when we do that on anyone else.
->We go "Fine, sure....We literally have bazillion RP reasons to do so", thinking this is just a formality at this point.

Admins Respond back, after every single person here gave a different reason why they specifically want to do this-> Not to mention he literally threw us into a War we can't win which alone should be reason enough-> Not enough reasons/questionable reasons.

Please explain to me how this long-running plotline, which engaged so many people, catered to the majority of people who played in Meiaquar and involved all Major players, Is somehow not exactly what I describe?

The GM's basically looked at this an refused to let the RP happen because the end result was someone being assassinated. Someone, no one wanted in the position of power ICly and OOCly. (expect for his friends of course)

Meiaquar would look a lot better today, if this Divine intervention didn't happen. And the story would have been better too.