[zericosmic]

SL2 has a complete dissonance with that style of RP, conflict rules here are consent based and there's nothing mechanical or even overly important IC to obtain. Why should I forward an overarching narrative if my character and myself gains nothing from it? If I wanted to force my way into leadership or similar position, it'd more than likely provoke a few stink eyes and ooc ire.

I'm not saying that things should change towards becoming like these games, it's just that SL2 currently favors personal story telling over greater narratives involving consequence devoid of the player's control and frankly I wish it'd lean more into its strengths rather than this awkward middle ground.

This is a tangent but I kinda wanna further nail on this point.. But straight up, there is no reason to do conflict on SL2 outside of personal storytelling, but even then it's hard to figure out why to do it with how little tangible there is in-universe for a reason as to why to do it.

Robbery? People are happy to just give their money away, there's also very little reason to actually rob people.. Roleplaying a character that is poor is almost difficult.. Even then most people don't find it a particularly compelling conflict to just jump a dude for his coin pouch.

Murder? Most people don't want their character stories to end at some murderhobo with a knife. Lot of people don't bother with DL4 at all.. And also going around wantonly killing people.. isn't all too compelling.

The Ancient charge that promotes conflict provides nothing narratively, it gives you a mob to work with, something that is not at all interesting in the grand scheme of things, and even if you obtain this mechanical advantage, nothing really stops people from just saying "no" to mechanical combat. There's also brutalize.. but again..? What's narratively interesting about that? We're writers, what does this do to further our character stories in any interesting way.. Hell brutalize is easy enough to just RP doing without the mechanical side.

The fact that we've only had 1 person over the history of the game actually complete this ancient charge, feels very telling of how interesting the community finds it.

Yokoshura- The big one..  Most people don't actually care about the Myr Tree, it is such a distant and far away thing for most Yokoshura characters, that it doesn't really seem that important. Some people assume gathering blood happens in the background because it's such a big thing for the nation. From what we have seen, most people just prefer to go to events for blood gathering. The tree really does not affect most people's personal narratives, it serves as just a backdrop for the environment they RP in. There have been very, very few actual blood hunts, and I do not expect that to ever change.

Can there be characters that make these reasons for conflict interesting? Yeah, but most players clearly do not find any of them compelling enough, and the game itself and the community do not lend themselves towards robbery and murder types of conflict.

Most people want something that is personal to their character. And something that has actual narrative value for their character. Korvara feels like it wants to promote nation conflict, nation engagement. But from what we've seen, the vast, vast majority of the playerbase does not wish to engage in it, and prefers to keep things small and personal.

Let's say you wanted to play a classic dnd-esque evil wizard, what in this game even supports that? You generally can't kill people to accomplish some big goal because most people aren't DL4, and even if you did kill people, it would ostracize you from the greater community, and leave you with no RP space. You're not gonna do robbery, because obviously that's dumb, imagine Saruman holding the hobbits at staff point asking for their wallets. Are you making preparations to cast some big powerful spell? Well.. First we don't have anything to support that, Second, you have to app for that, and would that even be likely to get approved? Thirdly, if this can go through, what really stops the nations from just all picking this up because they have far more resources than evil mister big wizard.

It is no wonder that event villains are so much more popular and accessible than PC ones.. Because genuinely, what can PCs even do, that isn't a fraction of the fantasy that event villains have going for them.

[Snake]

Tangent on me too, but being an Eventmin is a heavy burden and most of the time a thankless job, especially when your work gets perceived as 'not good enough' by both you and your audience. There is also a steep learning curve along the position, and by god, it must be paranoia-inducing for Dev and the GMs to put so much trust on people who were nothing but players a moment ago, as an EM you're given a lot of tools to do awesome things, but can easily do a lot of harm, so the concept of a 'temporary EM' should probably be out of the table for sanity's sake.

Unless, that is, the position is given to the one EMs who have stepped down and learned the ropes. Cause I definitely wouldn't mind a part-time job in this

However, after stepping down, I do feel like the agency of a player regarding the world, with the mantle of a player, isn't all that great. There are tools from the EMs that I wish I could have retained, if not only to help provide player-made content, like being able to narrate or create props/custom props without the crippling limitations we have as is. Hell, I don't even need to be able to spawn rewards or battles, just being able to produce "NPC X Y Z" for something I want to make fancy without requiring throwaway alts would be gold, but alas. I've been playing this game for years, and that is not something that'll ever change, I don't believe.

Regarding the OP, finally, eh.

I don't know what else to say beyond the part where seeing a lack of 'unusual faces' taking leadership positions, and for the most part, eventmins and GMs sitting at said helms, makes it a bit harsh on the whole "this game is moved by players" view. But how do you fix that, when the ball is running?

It's not like we can snap our fingers and suddenly someone like the Premier and Premier #2 will disappear and leave a power vacuum for Random Privit Joe to take-- Which guess what? The baseline lore already makes it hard to happen.

Even if that idiotic scenario were to happen, out of all nations, only Telegrad encourages a cyclical leadership.

Dons are there to stay for life, expected to be a cutthroat fight in the Mafia family to ascend to the position.
Premier is a literal queen empress who passes the position to their own family/nepotism babies.
Chief requires you to be the gorilla with the biggest stick, approved by every single person in the round table or else 'nah'.

And by god, Yokoshura is and has been a mess. Self-appointed "Dragon Heads" with different levels of leverage purely based around player-made backstory, there is no way someone can ascend to become a Dragon Head, especially not so early in the run. And once you get there (or if you make a Dragon Head), that means you'll have to be powerful enough with clout to let you stay afloat, RP alone is not enough as a decisive factor.

I am definitely not looking forward for when the whole "Daimyo" stuff is put on a plate and waved around, because at minimum, we'll see a GM or an EM getting that position. Because "players can't be trusted, despite Korvara being intended to be moved by players".

Like.

What's it going to be, then? Do we trust players to carry the narrative or not? The choice needs to be made, otherwise this discussion won't mean anything.

[Skimmy2]

Dons are there to stay for life, expected to be a cutthroat fight in the Mafia family to ascend to the position.
Premier is a literal queen empress who passes the position to their own family/nepotism babies.
Chief requires you to be the gorilla with the biggest stick, approved by every single person in the round table or else 'nah'.

And by god, Yokoshura is and has been a mess. Self-appointed "Dragon Heads" with different levels of leverage purely based around player-made backstory, there is no way someone can ascend to become a Dragon Head, especially not so early in the run. And once you get there (or if you make a Dragon Head), that means you'll have to be powerful enough with clout to let you stay afloat, RP alone is not enough as a decisive factor.

I am definitely not looking forward for when the whole "Daimyo" stuff is put on a plate and waved around, because at minimum, we'll see a GM or an EM getting that position. Because "players can't be trusted, despite Korvara being intended to be moved by players".

Like.

What's it going to be, then? Do we trust players to carry the narrative or not? The choice needs to be made, otherwise this discussion won't mean anything.

While I have mostly shared the sentiment expressed throughout the thread.
I honestly must disagree on Yokoshura and the state of Dragon Heads.

For starts to "ascend" and become a Dragon Head only requires you to be in a Noble Clan. It's exceedingly free form and allows for a vast range of situations.

Purely as an example for a Clanless bum starting out: say you get adopted by X clan you make up.
Ascend to the position after X amount of time, that you feel most reasonable.

That's it, the only thing you really need to write is where your clan is from and the village it runs. Now if you're trying to make your existing Character's family become nobility. Then enjoy all of the RP that that entails to weasel your way into power and gaining allies to recognize your claim.

I'm so far as the "chaotic" or messy nature of Yokoshura, personally I feel that Yokoshura's government is more Meiaquarise than Meiaquar.
It is always how Meiaquar should have been, a decentralized government with crime families all vying for cut of the pie. The only limit on how many Dons we should have is how many people can survive getting a hit put on them after declaring their power play.

In so far as how positions have been, and what the Daimyo will be handled. I personally am quite optimistic from everything that iv seen and heard this far.
And if Dev / GMs want to meddle in our player driven affairs, and get in our way; boy do I have a character who wants to watch the world burn.

[Poruku]

Here's the idea: we implement an OOC system that allows leaders to rotate.

I think Telegrad's democracy is healthy for the game: new people come in and do their own things. It refreshes the country, and creates an IC event. New blood has bold new ideas, and things happen. They learn from their predecessors and strive to do better.

I think we can implement this in other nations as well, but we need to make it into an OOC system. Bear with me for a moment. Each leader gets to stay in their position for up to a year or so. At a certain point, or whenever they choose to, an OOC election takes place. Candidates come forward and make an OOC application in a special thread on discord. This would look something like:

Code:

**Character Name:**
**Current Position in Nation:**
**About the character:**
**How would this character come to power:**
**What kind of leader will they be?:**
**Plans:**

This would give each player a clear idea of what to expect if they pick this person. Note that "coming to power" can happen in many different ways, and players would vote for that particular plan. However, the old leader must approve of the plan before they can make an application.

Below are some ideas of what kind of ways new leaders could potentially come to power in their respective nations. Please note that the old leader can refuse a plan to seize power. However, they are expected to at least approve of two candidates' plans. If a consensus cannot be reached, their term is extended until suitable plans and candidates are found.

Meiaquar
The land of money, Meiaquar's Don is simply the leader of the most powerful family. However, old empires always fall eventually. The leader of Meiaquar can change in the following ways:

Default:
- A new member of the Don's family takes the reins

Special:
- The leader of another powerful gang or family rises up and purchases a majority of Meiaquar's land. They make deals with the Carabineri, and power is transferred through finance.
- There is a gang war between the Don's family and an upstart gang or business family. The new family ultimately overthrows the Don, and the Carabineri is convinced or purchased into accepting the new Don.
- The Don is assassinated, and the heir takes their place.

Geladyne
The absolute leader of an authoritatian nation, Geladyne's Premier is often the target of much scrutiny and even dastarly ploys.

Default:
- The Premier appoints a new Premier, usually among the triumvirate, and steps down.

Special:
- A successful coup occurs, with a faction of rebels taking control of the castle. The old Premier is either killed, or forced to perform a ceremony to declare the new Premier. This is only feasible if the rebels are Geladyne military led by a high-ranking individual with influence.
- The Premier dies or disappears, or is declared unfit to rule, and the triumvirate elects a new Premier. (has precedent)
- The head of a significant noble family declares war upon the crown. A civil war ensues, with the new family taking the throne, or in some way the Premier surrenders.

Duyuei
As an ancestral nation with venerable warriors as leaders, the Chief of Duyuei is mostly a position based on respect and tradition.

Default:
- The Chief appoints a successor.

Special:
- A tribe overthrows the current chief, declaring their own leader as the chief of Duyuei. Only makes sense if the whole tribe is in agreement with that motion.
- The old Chief perishes, disappears, or is declared unfit to rule by a council of tribes. The tribe leaders elect a new Chief.


In short
This would be an OOC system that puts a term limit on leadership, asking leaders to find a replacement. There would be an OOC election that determines what story will unfold to cause a change in power. In most cases, this would be the leader appointing someone new. But if they want, it could be something bigger. The plan for a shift in leadership would be discussed in advance.

I believe we need a proper OOC system for this because nobody wants to give up power. But if we put a 1 year limit, I think that's fair, and gives people a reasonable timeframe to do what they want to do as leader, then let someone else pick it up.

Of course, if no candidates arise, the old leader remains as long as they want.

[Nekojinn]

Responding to Polk's post! (I still don't know how to quote.)

I think an OOC system could be fun, however...

Depending on how voting is done, things can get... bad? Example: If everyone is able to vote, if someone joins the game with their group of 30 friends or manages to make a few fake accounts, they could get such position.

If only a select few people can vote, how do we choose who?

And, most importantly: I am pretty satisfied with Geladyne's current leadership. Entropy and Filia make an amazing duo, we literally have 2-3 events in Geladyne weekly. Filia is responsible for most of my main character, Kuroun, development through events.

So giving a time limit to good leaders would just make it so the right people aren't moving things forward.

On a side-note:
I understand and agree with the sentiment shared in this thread that the world feels stagnant, that the nations don't interact with one another, however, consider this:

They tried. It didn't work. It caused OOC drama, even nowadays whenever a nation attempts to interact with others, it sometimes doesn't work at all!

Let me give you the example I'm most familiar with: Geladyne.
Last year, Geladyne had TWO operations which entire objective was sending soldiers to other nations as a way to offer aid + help make people understand that Geladyne isn't that bad. (As I'm sure we all know, after the war, Geladyne characters would be unwelcome everywhere, which started to be pretty annoying in some instances. I have personally talked with people who felt OOCly hurt because they just wanted to hang around at the Venue as a Geladynian and got into problems just for having a badge.)

But, as far as I know, that didn't really go anywhere. At least not with the ones send to Telegrad, they were meant to help us in a specific eventline but... the spots were already all filled by Telegradians.

In short, what I'm trying to say is: Geladyne has tried to interact with other nations.
They started a war: It led to OOC drama.
They attempted to be friendly: It didn't go anywhere.

However? Geladyne thrives inside of it's own sphere. And it's because of great leadership. Entropy and Filia are absolute monsters at keeping that place alive and well.

Nations don't interact with one another because it leads to drama or plainly doesn't work.
Nations stay in their own bubble because there's lesser chance for drama and it's easier to get things actually done.

Do I think this is perfect? No. It could be improved for sure! But I also understand why it's the way it is. It just works, and fixing what isn't broken can be a monumental task.

[Trexmaster]

I believe before we start considering how to cycle out other leaders, we need to address the fundamental purpose of a leader.

I'm in agreement that as it stands, the system doesn't well support player leaders being able to do much of anything. Cycling different people into these roles of futility wouldn't do anything but burn someone else out once they realize how powerless they actually are as things presently stand.

Yokoshura works for the time being because almost the entire community collectively pooled their time and energy into building it up at the expense of everywhere else in Korvara, and it was designed in a way that players could simply decide to take up a position of pseudo-leadership and let the court of public opinion decide if they were a good fit or not.

To comment on the Geladyne x Telegrad arrangement: that was a bit messy since it wasn't well communicated to us on the Telegrad side until it was already an approved deal between the leaders (this was addressed and rectified but made the deal awkward as a result), nor was it well defined what the purpose of those being brought over from Geladyne would even be. We had nothing for them to do and nothing was planned FOR them to do, which should've been the first thing sorted out before we took on individuals with nothing to offer them.

Despite that I worked to make sure the deal actually went through and took over communications regarding that deal until it was finished. Unsurprisingly, as nothing was prepared for them, there was little for those who wound up being explicitly assigned to stay in Telegrad. We could barely get events/activity in for the Telegradians let alone the Geladynian guests, and it was not seen as a priority at the time to ensure they did indeed have something for the work put in to get them to Telegrad in the first place. Suffice to say, for the Geladynians, they'd rather focus on home where they actually get content.

Circling back to the original point, the tools by which to make such interactions feasible simply don't exist. Geladyne committed the great faux pas of annexing land unprovoked thus naturally all of its neighbors are forever going to be wary, especially as said land has remained under their control since. Without any recourse to resolve this tension, it simply remains in perpetuity, while Geladyne receives no real benefit for the actions they've taken other than the enmity of others as macro economics don't exist/aren't impactful in any noticeable way to the environment as it stands.

In my opinion it was the inevitable result of how the player base conducted themselves. Geladyne was setup from the beginning to be a dormant threat kept in line only by economical and political factors, the fact that they relied on Meiaquar to facilitate the vital trade of food between them and their otherwise wary neighbors in Telegrad. We all roughly know how that went. In receiving all the aid it needed, it stood to reason Geladyne would inevitably triumph without unified action from multiple nations. Meiaquar was the obvious first target and the player base largely capitulated. None of the other nations were designed for conquest and barely for even defending themselves, with only one player in the Great Game the winner was only a matter of time.

Then, of course, we saw how the war was received. I still believe it was primarily an administrative failure as the GM team at the time refused to even try to create rules by which to conduct conflict on such a large scale, and left the leaders at the time to fend for themselves, not even performing the promised adjudication of the results of each battle. All the pain, hurtful words, and drama that came from it can ultimately be traced back to the refusal of those who had the power, to do their job.

Enter the present and now we have conflict being touted again in the form of a brand new 5th nation purposefully designed to be at odds with all of the other four, yet being entirely run by players. Given Conflict Rules that unfortunately do nothing to help circumvent the scenarios of the past in that they offer no real guidance past rolling a d20 or calling a moderator if you don't want to PvP each other.

As it stands, I unfortunately believe if Yokoshura attempts to interact with the world at large it will only end poorly. Either they forsake their hostile nature and defeat the purpose of the nation, or attempt to be the antagonists they were designed to be and receive the same treatment Geladyne did in the ostracizing of all individuals who focus their attention on the nation.

Unless the intention is for Yokoshura to get 4v1'd and obliterated which in that case, based, but somehow I don't think people would be on board for that. Especially with how many players have now dedicated their time to it. It advertised itself as effectively THE antagonist nation, to the point where I'd swear they were the Guild of Calamitous Intent with how it was suggested to effectively tie people to definitely not train tracks to bait their lovers into honor duels. Except I don't believe every single person who wanted to be involved with or otherwise make character into Yokoshura signed up to be an antagonist.

Now don't get me wrong, as much as I'm cross with Yokoshura hoovering up what few players we had left in other nations, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. I just think the idea of a nation that is an intended enemy of everyone is great. It's less great when it's almost entirely players running it, and they aren't all in on the idea of ultimately losing in the end (potentially). Making it awkward for everyone to cross that line of hostility lest the existence of one or the other be threatened, in a world where almost no one wants that to happen.

I went on a bit longer than intended but

TL;DR - We need to make leaders relevant first before we worry about cycling them at all. Interaction is a two way street and it is the unfortunate truth that not everyone is interested for one reason or another. Past conflicts have soured international relations as a whole with little recourse to rectify the situation. Justified or not the end result is almost everyone ignoring one another. Coupled with the lack of change or adversity, no outside cause is ever given for discussion with other nations. The aforementioned drama is primarily the result of Geladyne's negative action toward another nation that can never be meaningfully resolved, thus the only option being to ostracize them.

[Poruku]

I can agree that a term limit is not necessarily good. But what if we had this system simply for when a leader wishes to step down? I think it would be better than the current system where there's an OOC decision made by the current leader or a GM to pick a person.

[caliaca]

Hey everyone-

I've been brought up a few times so far within this thread so I feel a tiny bit obligated to respond. I'll get to the actual questions that the thread asks in a minute, but there's a bit of a preamble that I wanted to talk about.

I feel like, when these things come up, the discussion is often dominated by the same 5-15 people every time, people that have generally already made up their mind on the topic (no shade, I have too) and then just sort of reinforce each other as everyone agrees with everyone. This isn't a bad thing, and is not really an insult or anything like that, I more lead with this because I want to try and bring another perspective in here, from people who don't frequent or even have a forum account but still deserve to be heard. I will also fully admit that this is from a place of bias, where the crowd I hang out with predominantly will probably be different from the opinion largely represented within the thread.

Overall, I would start by saying that I actually think that there's a pretty significant crowd who wants to have more overarching political plots, for the world to change more, and for things to be more connected in general. These players can often tend to be newer ones, ones that just came in with Korvara and saw the promise that it gave and were really sold on it. I'm one of these examples, I love the idea of a connected world where everyone plays off of each other, and people can actually influence the borders, the history, all that sort of thing without having to be staff or an EM. Take a player like Dumbfunk, who had bounced off the game several times but stuck around because of liking the IC nature of the war- that's certainly not something that most will think about.

There's a plethora of players out there who believe that the world has stalled and that the setting has essentially stopped existing as a whole because of it- Ray is an example here, though many others have communicated it in the discord and other circles. There *is* a great desire for these things, for movement, for change, for conflict and friction, just as there is a great desire for the interpersonal slice of life stuff too.

I believe that it's fully possible for us to please both sides, but right now one is essentially snuffed dead in favor of the other, and it's brought up a lot of complaints about things not really happening or the setting being stagnate and disconnected. We haven't done this right in the past and I know that people will be hesitant to try again because of that, but I think we can do it better and really deliver on what people want. It's gonna be hella hard but I'm very hopeful.

To get to the questions

1. Absolutely not, and I think it's as bad as it's ever been except for the chaos that the role lottery provided. We're stagnant, we're doing nothing, so much just isn't getting done, things aren't advancing and it's just...

Just boring.

2.

Not much to add. Agree with Trex.

3.

Not much to add, agree with Trex's OP.

I want to add as a closer something quite personal here. Dahlia's mentioned a few times as someone that's pushed something and I'll still try to do that in my sphere, we're still doing hella internal conflict in Geladyne if anyone wants to join in but...

I don't really think it should be. I'll keep pushing content as much as possible because it's something I'm passionate about but honestly?

I'm not happy. I appreciate Nekojinn's shout out about how we're doing our best, but this isn't how I ever wanted things to be and were it not for making the other people within the Geladynian sphere happy, I probably would have just stopped and done my own personal rp and nothing else at some point. There's no advancement, no friction, I can never be surprised by anything, never find myself having to think of a situation because the only ones that exist are of my own creation.

This is dreadfully boring from the runner's side and I came to Korvara on the promise of this global scale roleplay. For various reasons it just... isn't happening.

I want us to change and do better, if only cause I'm losing my mind a bit over here lmao.

Oh- I guess one thing to note is that saying it's not run by players when an EM has a leadership position is kinda weird to me. We're still players, and I started doing leadership stuff before EM stuff. I got passionate and that passion just led to me applying to be able to do more, simple as.

[Balor]

The game has no spine, we bend over backwards to keep people in positions of power regardless of GM promises or consequence. Trust was overall broken amongst several nations for reasons people don't want to confront or have willfully forgot. 

Leaders are responsible for providing content or driving nations and get no true support, no proper systems put in place, and are essentially at the whims of a detached Developer.

I've stomached crash outs from members of this community, harassment, doxxing and lies. Hell even blatant lies from members of the Staff Team, and was put on wait for 8 months for a map that Appo put out (They did stunning work mind you) in less than 24 hours.  I've said it before and I will say it again the culture of this game sucks, has sucked, and will continue to suck because nothing truly changes in the core of the game.

I'll keep the lights on in Meiaquar, I'll handle my responsibilities. But I'm not going to fix problems that aren't mine to fix.  Disagree, agree, do what you gotta do to help you sleep at night. But I am not sorry. I will not ask Dev or the Staff for anything, because I will get nothing.

[Mewni]

There is a very good reason why majority of nation leaders that left the position left the game as a whole, or even roles that are supportive of them. I saw it all very closely, was right there in the pan and saw them all jump into the fire trying to leave it, nothing can be done unless the core itself is fixed.

It gets to a point that hearing a promise or "If this continues..." and "Next time..." is just taken as nothing ever happens.

Because it doesn't, and never will.

Problems are only dealt with when it reaches a point the issue at hand gets emboldened enough they slip up and mess with the wrong person, even if what made it happen is minuscule compared to everything that was done.

Its baffling how there is issues that should've been dealt with a long time still being around, people that for all purposes shouldn't be around and, even restrictions given as 'second chances' for some forsaken reason being blatantly ignored. Just be loud enough and intrusive enough, the more you overstep your station the better, that way either people be quiet or accept it, otherwise you get targeted too and, as proven, nothing comes out of it anyway so just lower your head or glaze them so you get somewhere.

Things are like this because putting more in the plate is out of the question, eating what is on it already is a huge test of will. Who wants to deal with conflict when you are already being beaten up and barely want to hop in anymore? especially when 90% will just joke around and not take it seriously, unless its to give shit to others, then suddenly its a serious deal.

There is a reason why when someone finally gets punished a huge portion of the community speaks out in favor of it if its even questioned, because the most ridiculous of cases that we can see (Such as abusing especial tools given to you to stalk others and the crazy harassment, to downright crimes) isn't far and in-between, its very common and it still happens. I know it, you know it. And people do report it, by god do they do that, but it goes nowhere, and everyone grows jaded and secludes themselves to their friends, the only people they feel that they can vent their frustrations to, and write good stories with.

Now, its very obvious some don't even know about any of this, and ignorance is a bliss. But I don't envy them, just find it funny. Especially when points I am making is proven in this thread alone.

But this is this, and that's that. Just get comfy and endure the ride.