[Rendar]

I think, for the time being, adding the Glancing Blows mechanic (so dodging is actually worthwhile and it forces some Auothit builds to build SKI and/or LUC) should come to the forefront. We can assess how Basic Attacks fair, after that, and compare it with autohits.

If Autohits are still doing a ridiculous amount of damage, compared to basic attacks, then we can lower their damage (or do something involving durability)

Edit: Also I don't know how you people are "Losing more than half your damage." Unless you had literally no scaling from stats on your weapon, losing your weapon power (the 2x one) shouldn't actually be hitting you that hard. Unless you mean on crits, which aren't guaranteed.

Edit 2: I can agree though. As I've been trying to make a new character that is an Auto-Hitter. I've been trying to figure out just what-the-fuck to do.

I need SKI to hit/crit, CEL to dodge, VIT to live, LUC to hit/dodge/crit, GUI so my crits do damage (Nullified by Dullahan/Lich), at least 20 SAN, and a shitton of APT because it's a god stat.

So I have to find a weapon that scaled off of most of this.. But not only that, my CEL is worthless, alongside my LUC (for evasion) if they're not 50+. Due to the way Autohits work, I have to have Rogue somewhere in my classes so I don't get turbofucked by autohits (Though just having 30 extra def/res would make it completely null and void and I'd get the same result anyways, without the penalties of being KD, Stunned, Guarding, Invoking, etc.)

So yeah. It's hard to make a basic attack build unless you're just going balls-to-the-wall zero defenses 1000% attack stat mode and you die in 3.5 seconds.

As an auto-hitter, you need... Weapon scaling (they come in flavors such as "All of my defensive stats can be used offensively" (though anything with over 100% scalign is god tier, so 1 star rebelling weapons gogogogo).. You want bloody palms (if you can deal any magic damage) OR Chimera bands for +stats out the ass. If you can 2h the weapon, 2h it. Now, the weapon needs rebelling + POWER PARTS (swords are bullshit broken for this) + FIREBLOOD REMAINS for +8 power for literally no downside.

What now? Now you need DEF/RES/VIT... and you can just build whatever the actual fuck you want with the rest of your points, because it actually doesn't matter. You now have a ton of health, defenses, and can use those stats to assblast someone. If an autohitter does build like a basic attacker (bar the CEL), then that means that they're going a lightning crit build. To make their lightning crit autohits do about 2-2.5x the damage a normal basic attack could ever do.

[Autumn]

At the very least, multi-hit guns need this change, basic attacks can always be adjusted in a trait rework for later, but for now, multi hit guns deal less damage than anything else in the game due to how they worked.

They'd need a massive scaling buff, or the power added to each shot again.

[KhalidtheGrey]

I don't see how durability consumption would do anything, unless it's eating 3 to 10 durability a swing. Wouldn't people be otherwise dead before a 40 dura weapon runs out? Either the attacker or defender at that...

Putting hit checks of some kind or a glancing blows system that scales on how much the blow was evaded by would be nice.

I think it may be worth mentioning most basic attackers *do* have skill investment. Kensei and VA, for example, have a lot of buffs for their basics that take skill pool and points in order to make them more than simply bad to mediocre.

[Sawrock]

Enemies run out of HP faster than players run out of FP. This means that autohits will always be the best choice- they deal more damage, they have additional effects (AoE, sear tiles for damage and to prevent Die Hard, status inflicts, etc), and they never miss.

Basic attacks were better in some regards (not all) before this change: with a critical (although not without), they did more damage, and gave you bonus momentum (which is handy if you had fleur), thus allowing you to "combo" more. Without this extra damage boost from the bug fix, however, the extra effects and damage of autohits are just plain, flat-out more worth it. I'd like the fix bug to be returned as a feature.

[Rendar]

Adding about 15-25 power to each basic attack isn't going to fix what's inherently broken and the disparity between autohits and basic attacks.

Neither will adding durability cost to autohits (aside from make Rustic just not be used anymore). Neither will increasing FP costs. FP costs only really matter in a fight between someone and a tank. And even then, HMC trivializes a decent amount of the 'cost' of spamming the shit out of autohits.

Basic Attacks, at a baseline, are 100% SWA to 1 person. **If** you crit (which pretty much screams be a duelist so you can get the most out of your crits), you can do upwards of 200% SWA to that one person and apply on-hit effects of the weapon (which, on a 120 swa weapon, is still only **240 damage**) Now % defense is applied, alongside armor, and any outright DR. Basic attack damage drops fast against a tank. Against a dodger, there's a chance that you either do not hit (wasting momentum) (copied more-or-less by Geist Schritt), or you hit and they take the full brunt of your hit with their likely 5-20 defense and unarmored torso defense. Meaning that they are taking a shitton more than a tank, and are forced to build a defense that won't always work.

Autohits, conversely, get to almost always have 100% SWA as a baseline. Not only this, they generally come with an AoE attack radius, elemental augment (Helllooo lightning crits), and more. Retreating swipe, iirc, is 120% SWA and gets to attack 5 tiles around you. Magic spells (such as Famiuga) can get 100% SWA + 120%~ ice attack factored in. I've seen a Famiuga hit a man for 300+ damage without a weakness. That's just not okay.

Glancing blows should help balance this out, at least making dodgy atleast somewhat reliable instead of "talk shit get hit" meta, but even then dodging is a joke unless you have the 7-12 momentum required to apply each and every buff that you need to dodge properly (of which, people can just smack your ass with -percentage dodge and just topkek you to death, but thats a story for another day.)

So, I'm fine with glancing blows coming around first before we decide to add double weapon power

[Sarah54321]

I personally believe that having the basic attack fix is causing quite a bit of trouble. Auto-hits aren't near as fun as basic attacking for me, besides, many skills use basic attack stats, for example, the duelist skills. I think I'd prefer to at least have 1.5x weapon power at the very least. It feels like basic attacks do very little for now.

And yes, Auto-hits are just, strong now. Nothing can compete with them as far as this goes for now.

[KhalidtheGrey]

Passing thought. Rolling back the bug 'fix' to basic attack power applying as bonus damage on hit till a change is decided on and implemented for autohits and/or dodge, such as Glancing Blows. That way everything is at least not worse than it was a week ago before half the server's characters couldn't even grind anymore and it can be removed alongside the autohit/dodge change so it's less... harmful, best I can tell.

[Neus]

I'm not going to revert the bug fix, so suggesting that is pointless. Basic attacks still have an edge over autohits; they don't cost FP, they have a higher potential damage output between bonus momentum and critical hit modifiers being higher than autohit SWP, and they don't have any skill point investment required. Autohits are more reliable and can do more damage provided you don't/aren't built for criticals.

That said, I think reliability does go a long way, and I do want to add accuracy checks for autohits to help bring them in line and help make evade slightly more useful as a whole. I'm not sure when I'll do that but it is on my list.

[Autumn]

What about multi-hit guns? They'll need a serious adjustment if you don't at least give them power on hit for their basic attacks, that's all I'm wondering about now.

[Grandpa]

I think that kind of change would be fine, but I would hope it's coming sooner rather than later. Having evade be pretty much useless for weeks, possibly even months.... Doesn't sound too appealing.

In the end, the decision is yours. But I'd be all for autohits having some kind of accuracy check as soon as possible.