[Skullcatrons]

Hey hey, Skull here

Shine Knighting is perhaps one of the most impractical transformation skill to use, not because it's actually good, but because the criteria to use it is annoying as hell. If you're walking down the path of Shine Knighter, chances are you're going to have to build STR and FAI to make it viable. Which means, of course yes you're going to have to deal with clusterfuck of a stat-spread. 

You cannot two-hand a Shine sword because if you do, you miss out the potential opportunities to cast Light-spells like Graft, Shine Ray, etc. Because you have all this faith which is going into your funny glowing lightsaber. So you have to abandon the two-handing which would've been a big boon to have, to slap your off-hand with funni monk staff so you can actually cast spells. (Monk staves are 70% STR, 40% FAI in case you don't know why), and so you're ending up to be this weird dual-wielding BK/Priest (You're not going Ghost/Priest are you.. senpai?)

So needless to say, while the Shine Sword grants you +2 WIL, and FAI. It is designed to compensate for the weird stat-fuckery you're walking into because not only are you suffering from stat-spread due to off-hand being used for a monk stave, if you don't. Then you can't take advantage of FAITH to use spells. 

Now some of you will ask, "But wouldn't that just be solved by shine-knighting, and getting 5 stats across the board?" well sweet honeypot.

Again, you're missing out two-handing benefits, you're also being held back by the off-hand being used for monk stave, you'll also need to acquire a Shine sword.

Also, if we're having this conversation because of 100% Dark/Light Res? What about 100% Dark Res umbral? 

But yes, for those who don't wanna read this. The TLDR are:

Pro:
100% Immunity to Light/Dark,
-Hit reduction equal to level to all enemies near you,
+stats to any nearby allies to your location
+2 WIL/FAI

Cons:
Requires STR/FAI scaling (which means using FAI for something), requiring you to delegate off-hand for casting tools.
With above con, cannot get two-handing SWA bonus therefore unless you're going to "fuck it" and just grab FAI and ignore light spells, then it's kind of a waste of your time to grab this sword.
Requires you to actually find a shine-sword either as a drop, or someone to craft it for you (Great Six exclusive crafting at this time).
Requires Chimera eyes, and grinding to unlocks as well.
Can be boonstripped.

Truthfully, some people had decided to entirety abandon Shine swords because it's actually subpar. Spelledge weapon series generally outperforms Shine sword by being more accessible, and easier to build with.  

If you wants to nerf the Shine-sword, you would have to compensate for the inevitable weaknesses it'll just gain.

[Shujin]

I just like to point out two things that people seem to still think Shine Knights do, but do not.

They do NOT reduce hit. They give a Pseudo blind status to those that attack them, meaning a 75%hit cap (with blind fighting) assmuning its not some golden eyes user.

The Charisma Bonus is also no longer a thing, sadly.

But yeah I am also in the camp of just not using Shine knighting for those reasons. So if negating damage seems too strong it would need something else, cause its frankly the only real reason right now why you maybe do it.

[FaeLenx]

I feel like a lot of people arguing against shine knights being OP are kinda missing the point of why it's really situationally strong.

Shine knight would not be substantially weaker for losing its full immunities for the every day builds that mean to use it.

It would only be weaker to the people who slot the weapon as a theoretical solution to hexer/priests or other light/dark based builds. Both light and dark damage are already inundated with counters and solutions that block them out entirely as viable damage sources against the more meta-breaking item stackers. Removing this one easy to use tool is not a bad idea.

Nobody is suggesting making shine knight weaker at what YOU GUYS are talking about using it for. They're talking about making it no longer an easy nullification against specific builds. Similar to this, we should consider other easy itemizations that nullify entire builds like red letter and circle ring, though at least those come with a weakness to their use beyond just the lost opportunity of wearing other items.

[Skullcatrons]

I feel like a lot of people arguing against shine knights being OP are kinda missing the point of why it's really situationally strong.

Shine knight would not be substantially weaker for losing its full immunities for the every day builds that mean to use it.

It would only be weaker to the people who slot the weapon as a theoretical solution to hexer/priests or other light/dark based builds. Both light and dark damage are already inundated with counters and solutions that block them out entirely as viable damage sources against the more meta-breaking item stackers. Removing this one easy to use tool is not a bad idea.

Nobody is suggesting making shine knight weaker at what YOU GUYS are talking about using it for. They're talking about making it no longer an easy nullification against specific builds. Similar to this, we should consider other easy itemizations that nullify entire builds like red letter and circle ring, though at least those come with a weakness to their use beyond just the lost opportunity of wearing other items.

The difference between Shine Knighting and Red Letter
One's a status, another an equipment.

That's really the big difference we're saying here. Red Letter, Circle Ring had to has a weakness because they're not status-effect. You cannot cleanse them, you cannot get rid of them because they're an equipment. Shine Knighting on other hand, you can prevent that. You can knockdown them, silence them. Once they get silenced, they cannot use Shine Knighting because it is an invocation. Much like Death Knighting. And finally, in addition.. Refer to posts above.

[FaeLenx]

One's a status that is given by an equipment.

Yes, one is slightly better than the other. No, that doesn't mean that shine knighting's full immunity isn't a problem that can be exploited by people who carry an entire inventory of random counter-items and switch their equipment before combats.

[Shujin]

I mean if you know your enemy that good, because they are obvious about it and you actually can for some reason play all those items to a level that you can still beat them because those people are "all eggs in one basket"playstyles?

Then punishing them in that way is fine. Thats why those are meme/theme builds.

I think something that people also forget is just how much momentum loss you truly have with an Invocation. In a 1 vs 1 its 9, sure. But you give these 9 momentum to every enemy in the other team over you. (that means the transformation in that scenario is worth roughly 36 Momentum. thats 6 turns. It has to do something very good if it only lasts 4,5 turns itself)

What people are saying here is that Shine knight is barely worth transforming into AS IT IS. So removing something that is indeed very, very good. The negating of light and dark...When that is ALSO no longer the case that people feel that Shine knighting is even worse. Thats why some people say "If you remove negate, give it something else." ...Cause Shine Knighting sucks already in momentum efficency.
And thats without touching how bad the weapon itself it.

[FaeLenx]

Your math is kinda awful there for its worth in momentum in a team fight. You could kinda say that about anything. The difference with shine knighting in a larger team fight is actually to its benefit. A defensive skill scales to the amount of enemies fighting/damaging you in value whereas an offensive skill does not usually do so unless it's an AoE. So yes, the transformation is worth roughly 36 momentum in that scenario. And I do mean worth. It's weird that you'd bring up team fights for shine knighting when that's one of the scenarios where it's actually really good.

The weapon itself is fine. In regards to scaling, it's normal. It also offers stats, and it's a sword so you get all of the opportunities that offers.

But it's, in the end, a handslot item that offers 2 full immunities. It doesn't need to offer those immunities to still be good. Most people you fight, as you pointed out, will not be negatively impacted by those immunities and it will still be a good invocation. Nerfing those immunities will be a tiny hit to its overall goodness while a massive hit to its meme potential as a handslot item that people will slot in to turn other peoples' builds into meme builds by making them so easily negated by an item.

[Shujin]

I know its not exactly like that obviously. But if you compare it with something like...Divine Shower for Example. you use your invocation to effect all enemies. You deal damage, blind them. Good stuff.
Shine knighting buffs you and only you. Thats a thing that people can either ignore, deal with in any way that Shine Knighting does not cover/or because they are immune to it, etc. Its not momentum efficient for an invocation. Most invocations are AoE when they are considered good.

I guess we have to agree on disagreeing there on how good that weapon is, in a feasible build. Its mediocre at best imo.

And it does not HAVE to offer them, but Shine Knighting would be literal garbage if it didn't. Most people you fight would not be effected by it at all. Meaning no its not a good invocation, because its not a good invocation as it stands. those immunities are basically the only thing that makes people even consider shine knighting. The pseudo blind isn't all that great in most cases and can be acheived easier.

No ones saying Do not take it from them to make it fairer. But prertty much everyone who actually uses Shine Knighting says "its actually not as good as people make it out to be."

[FaeLenx]

Comparing anything to divine shower in a team fight is kinda arguing in bad faith. Pretty much anyone will agree that it's an egregiously strong tool in larger fights.

[Autumn]

Aside from the bickering, Faelenx is correct, it is not about whether or not what it counters is good, it matters more that there are strictly no surprises or counters to most immunities, of which Fire and Ice have been at least given bows to combat this.

I would like for Immunities to be presented as options that inspire builds to gauge Safety vs Offense when it comes to their item options, in this case I do think buffing Nihilist is a good option to present in response to Shine Knighting's immunities.

If this is not an option that is available however, then the immunities will eventually need to be looked at.