[TheCommonNoob]

The OP makes a lot of vague points that I don't really agree with, and it seems like this post is more about the Geladynian raids on Beggar's Hole than anything else.

This is about the raids. It is the only point of time as of now that two player factions have gotten into serious conflict with each other on a skirmishing level, on this big of a scale in SL2 history as far as I know. (Accounting that it is fully public RP with no houses or events held to host such a conflict).

The end result? Quite messy with no concrete conflict rules. The mainland always lacked them but was hand waved almost always, due to players never really being "in control" of the situation there. Though that is a tangent of its own. Sure we have flee and capture rules but now we need war rules.

Does Beggar's hole have NPC guards, or an NPC or player driven watch of any kind? I'm assuming not given the OP's talk on NPCs and their usage. This kind of excuses the no notice if so, though an activity post/ping of some kind should probably still be made for such an event and I couldn't find one anywhere.

If they wanted to go down the NPC-route? Then sure, Beggar's Hole is aligned with the Smugglers who live RIGHT NEXT TO THEM and have existed for who knows how long before player intervention. Which I'd assume would be not very happy that Geladyne sends in troops to march on their neighbors. Even then, the first time they marched there was indeed a player watch but they were walked pass by with no RP whatsoever.

Disregarding that, there SHOULD be a notice on a OOC-level at least. Communication is king. What are you going to expect to find when you march in unannounced/without communication to your IC opposition and nobody is around in a RP game? Just go back? "Hey boss, they weren't home so we left a letter." If it was Meiaquar that marched troops into Geladyne with no announcement or OOC communication as an example, it probably wouldn't feel too great for either side.

TL;DR: Conflict in its current state has proven to be a messy endeavor, and strives should be made to ensure it is smoother in the future, on both an OOC and IC scale.

Regarding the main post then there are many things that have been agreed upon by players from different slices of the community and in-game factions, even. I believe that's some indication that there is something wrong with the current way of how things are going.

I agree most of the outcries myself as I've seen how the way things are affecting both sides of the coin and a more solid foundation for rulings would be a good start to fixing some problems that have risen with how current conflict goes.

My own two-cents in the end are, please communicate OOC'ly with one another. Even if you may not agree with one another, we're all roleplayers looking to roleplay proper. Not legitimate enemies that must have the upper hand at all cost.

[FaeLenx]

The players were told to put up a ping and do the exact same thing. I was sitting around for the full duration of them doing it, off screen but generally aware of what they were doing. They put up the ping and waited quite a while to do the thing. The people you're complaining about did the exact same thing you were told to do except for the weird pet stuff. I don't personally like that, but it's also something that anyone could reasonably do and also not very potent or actually important. As far as I know, you could remedy the situation by just "emote zaps another one." like clockwork each time it appeared. Bothersome? Probably. A problem? Probably not. You're just mutually wasting each other's time with no danger presented to either side.

Also Henrikson wasn't called out with any notice whatsoever. No date was given for the debate. I know this because I wrote it. This is another issue where people could read something and solve their problems.



Read it. Tell me what you get from this part of the post where a date is mentioned.

Also the part below it.



I don't know how any reasonable person who actually read everything in full could come to the conclusion that the Zivilseher would want to talk to the Don about most of these issues or that he would somehow think that this could be handled in the exact same time and place as a debate in a reasonable enough timeframe to fit all of that talking in without just skimming over it and picking the parts that most upset them.

For the challenge to a public debate, mentioned before that announcement for a public forum, he can respond however he sees fit IC.

[Neus]

lol
u really just said u exist because ur funny. ur chars, ur story, shit even ur ic doesn’t matter to us. we ALLOW you to exist because we are the oh so great people that allow silly little characters like yours to exist. thats all I got from a quick skim, not even all of it, you aren’t here to discuss clearly. u and half the ppl shitting on it snd the reasoning etc don’t even rp there, don’t even understand what we do or if we have a culture or anything like that. (And when told in ic u just laugh anyway so it isn’t like it matters) the audacity u have to just sprout this shit is just amazing, we’ve been rping for what? 1 1/2 months, do you think that realistically at any point these topics or things haven’t formed? get off ur high horse bro it’s a 2d rp game, I want to say fuck off but I’ll be deemed as attacking, even if u did just literally attack all of us,

fuck off

I'll reply to the main topic of the post later but I want to pop in and say that this does not help anyone. Don't reply if you can't do so without being inflammatory.

[Soul_Hacker]

I would just like to pop in once more to say that I appreciate all the discussion that is being had on this topic! Please let's not be inflammatory towards each-other on these matters though, it's better for the playerbase and for the roleplay that people aren't. This isn't targeted towards anyone in specific, I promise. Neither this nor the starting post. I simply think it's a discussion that should be had. Thank you all again!

[Snake]

Auggy (CommonNoob) said everything I'd say. This needs to be changed to be a little more fair and less grime-y in one side. The spirit of SL2 is of a cooperative roleplaying environment. But where is cooperation in a place where everybody assumes things and goes for it without even confirming if the other side is comfortable with it?

War rules at the very least will be nice. Polly had us having that War Game, and it was a good gauge on how we should be doing things.

OOC warning, a schedule, perhaps subbing up to a certain player limit, then going for it. It'll be either this, or else this will degenerate to a grime fest where each side will just use 'DA ROOLZ' to justify their nasty, competitive behavior to try and come out on top at all costs. Which will, obviously, end up pretty toxic.

[FaeLenx]

Well speaking of wargames I do have some ideas that I was saving for #2 somewhere down the line. It's obviously a discussion being held at so many levels across so many spaces at this point though and it does need its own thread.

[Pyro]

Does Beggar's hole have NPC guards, or an NPC or player driven watch of any kind? I'm assuming not given the OP's talk on NPCs and their usage. This kind of excuses the no notice if so, though an activity post/ping of some kind should probably still be made for such an event and I couldn't find one anywhere.

If they wanted to go down the NPC-route? Then sure, Beggar's Hole is aligned with the Smugglers who live RIGHT NEXT TO THEM and have existed for who knows how long before player intervention. Which I'd assume would be not very happy that Geladyne sends in troops to march on their neighbors. Even then, the first time they marched there was indeed a player watch but they were walked pass by with no RP whatsoever.

Disregarding that, there SHOULD be a notice on a OOC-level at least. Communication is king. What are you going to expect to find when you march in unannounced/without communication to your IC opposition and nobody is around in a RP game? Just go back? "Hey boss, they weren't home so we left a letter." If it was Meiaquar that marched troops into Geladyne with no announcement or OOC communication as an example, it probably wouldn't feel too great for either side.

Hello,

I don't really think I have much capability of commenting on much in this thread, as I've been trying to keep things smooth from an OOC perspective because we're all just here for RP and rules aren't my forte. I think using pet kits to spy is scummy. And there should probably be more OOC communication, but the latter point I'm not really sure how to address because it's easy for things to get out of hand really quickly when people can be called up. (Which is why we made sure everyone agreed to a scene lock the second time around.)

However, one thing I do feel comfortable addressing is this point in particular, as it paints the Geladyne players involved as ignoring RP. Given I was playing the character in charge of leading both times, I'm fairly certain that we weren't given any form of indicator that someone intended to RP with/at us on our way to the Beggar's Hole. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, because we certainly would have stopped to RP if someone was there and made their intentions known. But to my knowledge, they did not.

[Miller]

I agree with Kunai and Auggy, I've been mostly an outsider but have been privy to some of the details behind the Beggar's Hole raid and said prison break mentioned in the thread's OP. Communication and cooperation is a core part of roleplay and I feel like lately I've been seeing unnecessary hostility due to the fore mentioned lack of communication.

I'm not necessarily sure if the rules for scene locking and conflict need to be adjusted since the core issue with these few major occurrences have largely been rooted in miscommunication, but I can understand it potentially being necessary if we aren't respecting each other enough.

We shouldn't be throwing insults at each other OOCly or honestly doing the pet kit spying deal, it's just grime and leaves everyone feeling unhappy instead of encouraging engaging conflict.

Personally from an outside perspective, I would prefer to see people willing to schedule things or give a heads up in advance that this might be happening / this may involve actual conflict from both sides of the deal. While sometimes it's a bit unreasonable for x or y to get away with fighting back against an overwhelming force, sometimes a bit of leeway to the underdog should be given to create a more engaging story; but that's just my personal take and not an objective fact. Ultimately cooperation and basic respect is key to enjoyable conflict.

Sorry if this seems to be a repeat of what already was said in this thread though, just giving my own personal two cents.

[the homestuck man himself]

I finally decided to make forum account due to this. I wanted to toss my hat into the ring that is this discussion.

As someone who has had a character in Beggar's Hole for a decent time now, I wanted to say as a general statement that it has developed into something more than just what most would call ICly as 'bandits', it has become something akin to a community, a faction- A small nation, even. Each and every single player in this place has been working towards making it something greater.

I do believe that, as OP and some others have expressed, there needs to be some changes here and there to what has currently been put into place in regards to conflict as a whole. I, myself, feel that the current set of rules do not fit the current scale of conflict Korvara can bring to the table mechanically, either due to how the system was made in a time where Sigrogana reigned as the only continent.

I had an idea recently that, if the rules were to be changed in some way shape or form in the future(or now), that we could do it as a group. A community effort to discuss each and every single aspect of the rules in discord, similar to an actual, vocal forum you would have in the real world. The features provided by discord make this a way easier task and from experience, having the community decide on what they will go through cuts down a lot when it comes to disagreements. But again, this is just a little idea.

As a quick side note before I finish, in regards to the 'eye spies', I would like to mention that I do not enjoy the concept of a paid item that is supposedly cosmetic to be used as a way to gather information on a ICly level, mainly with how it works with the enviroment around it. While yes we can roleplay destroying them and what not, this could be simply solved by not allowing them at all and rather, utilize the player's character that would've otherwise been miles upon miles away, unable to be tracked down properly as they can quite simply unsummon their pet in a moment's notice. But that's just me.

In the end, I hope that this forum not only comes as a way to better the conflict experience in Korvara as a whole, but as a result, incetivize more unique approaches to the world that has been given to us, be it as the creation of factions outside of the currently established ones, or simply as a group that aims to spice up the lives of the many players currently roaming the land.

That's all.

[Autumn]

I am mostly an outsider to the events that occur in Beggar's Hole, I haven't even really approached that side of the continent aside from eradicating Terra Flama with verglas shit, that's beside the point, I think we are all capable of keeping a civil discussion going as many good points have been brought up from both sides here.

There is an issue to be seen in not giving ample notice before an attack could take place, and though it may not always make the most sense in IC to make it clear to your enemy when you are going to attack, every one of us could have something else to be doing that day or simply not hear of it, having a set day will let everyone know, whether friend, foe or just a bystander that there will be a certain conflict on a certain day. And it will be scene locked most likely, not allowing further joining in.

Communication is very integral to the whole experience and I would love to see more conflict arise from little issues like these, these little issues will eventually rise into something greater.

I also think that the existence of Beggar's Hole itself, the mapped area and the faction being established just by itself is already a pretty big mark to leave on the community as a whole, we should be treating them fairly, joke or not. Faelenx has brought up very good points about the way that the Beggar's Hole faction wishes to present themselves as, I would love them to take some of the criticism presented and bring it forward, if it truly wishes to be a different community than it originally was.

I am watching this thread carefully, though I'm mostly just rehashing what has already been said. Lets just be civil yeah? Maybe we can create something great from these conflicts.