[WaifuApple]

Some amount of free donation item access for eventmins is very much so less of a solution for the lack of eventmins in general - that is a different problem, in that sense. And more eventmins alone would never scratch the itch of the problem behind that.

And the problem behind that is simple - to make maps for events, to create locations outside of camps, existing places, and overworlds... to house events in volcanos, icy caves, areas you have visioned that don't yet exist... you need to pay your own money. In that sense, to get ambitious with location, being an eventmin doesn't just not pay, it can very much cost.

And if you can't afford donation items, or get enough handouts to sustain yourself for making the events you want to make... Suddenly, for making your own narratives, making your own stories, well, what you have to play with is no longer all that much at all.

You could have ten, fifteen, twenty eventmins, and still have them get hooked down by monetary requirements that require them to stick to very limited locales, or rely on other people's generosity, or their own money, just to perform simple volunteer work.

That is a fundamental flaw that numbers aren't enough of a band-aid for. It's basically a stop sign on event creativity in some ways.

[Snake]

Now that's just a grim thought.

Maybe if both got addressed together? It looks like this will always be tugged in both these ways, understanding that one part of the problem, with a third chime that I'll give to Jeff too (because it's true, in a sense).

- "Not enough people in the staff."
- "Eventmins are only truly doable if they're donators or receive mercy."
- "If eventmins end too good, people will grow dependency on them, perpetuating the cycle of 'we want more now that our standards are this high'."

Though just saying, at this rate that's why I've been insisting on limited player tools that help us DM our own things in houses. The whole stuff on 'Cardboard Cutouts' that I have posted a long ass time ago, that allows us to lay down icon marks on the ground to at the very least dictate "hey there's an enemy on this thing, let's roleplay this make-belief and kick their ass" would ease the tax on needing visual flavor for everything.

Just one single donation item (or, if possible, not a donation item) to simply mark the ground with A/B/C, would enable so much and ease so much load on everyone's shoulders and make player-driven events more doable. Because if being an eventmin means 'you get mob spawning tools and a kiss on the forehead' I'd rather just continue doing what I'm doing and using my DnD system in SL2 until the situation becomes more favorable.

I think FFXIV roleplayers know what I'm talking about, in reference to that. Hell, Jupiter can chime in about how expensive Bracken Moor 2 was, too, if he wants.

[Balor]

So I wanted to touch on something I've spoken to with Staff team and such.

I have been working on and off on general use event houses that I intend to make open for people. To sort of help stop the like rot that is people having to make a new event space for a new event, when you sometimes just need a bogstandard desert for a scene, or a snowy temple, etc. This is something I want to offer up to people at some time soon because I feel it would allow some Eventmins who are adverse to building, to just do fun and silly things. I encourage people who have event spaces they don't use, to also consider offering them up to the Event Team as well.

I also think Jupiter has a good point, I don't need to participate in events, but knowing they're going on with a nice means to read up on them. Allows me to reference things, as it allows people to potentially infer past events as Backstory. For example Black Falcon burned Cellsvich and age ago, and I had the backstory of one of my characters reference it as the reason their father died. Just a nameless mook in the city when it burned down. Even being able to comment on an event you read in the newspaper or by song via bards is worldbuilding and includes people in a meaningful way.

In fact it may be worthwhile to have players write songs about events, as though they were bards. Or for eventmins to offer up recaps in the form of pop songs recontextualized to SL2.

[Sarah54321]

Hello, I just got done reading through this topic and phew, it's kind of spicy! But I'll lay down my thoughts on things, as well! As an Eventmin who likely doesn't seem busy at all (Which, to be fair, I don't run events as often as I should), I'd like to state my views on this.

I will not use the excuse that I have a life outside of SL2, because I don't really do anything except sit on the computer. I like to perform as an eventmin at an almost leisurely manner because if I feel like I'm forcing out events, churning them out as if like a job, or heck like a hassle, it won't be fun for others. I'm also one to offer help more as a back up eventmin than as a 'Main', Event Runner, if that makes sense. I admit it's very scary to try and build up a story and have others participate in it because- you don't know whether that story will take flight or it'll crash and burn. That's sort of a risk I accepted when I became one, but it's still one that paralyzes me from making public events most of the time.

That aside, I've been trying my best to put aside such fears as of late. When someone asks for help with an event, I usually DM them to see if I can do anything to assist. i've got a few events lined up to help with other players, and I enjoy mostly just helping them. I admit that I'm not active as I should, I'm rather lax and I'm probably taking up a spot that someone else could probably use, but I'd like to say I'm trying to pick up my slack, if that makes sense.

Personal issues aside, I feel like we COULD use more eventmins. Not that many, but some more. Due to having several step down or become promoted, there's fewer of us, and not to mention people that aren't me are rather busy outside of SL2. Though not because the current Eventmins aren't doing their job. I feel like if all five of us were performing public events, it would get crowded really fast.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't run public events, but all of us at once doing it might get hectic. That aside, though, I think that many people have already made their points that are good to point out- like needing more transparency on when events are taking place, etc. That way it looks like we're actually doing something. I can see that a lot of people are working, but how many of players who aren't in our spot can, etc.

I will personally say that I hold very little bias towards running events when it comes to people. The bias I have is whether or not I'll have to do a lot of mobs or make balancing, because that isn't very fun and I'm also rather bad at it. I prefer story-driven, roleplay heavy events, and thus I'm hesitant to take up a fight-heavy event when someone else could probably do it much better, or at least in a more timely manner.

This post has been sort of all over the place, but I'll close out by saying to the original poll question- Yes, and No. I think we need more eventmins to a degree, not that many, but a couple wouldn't hurt. Am I upset about how they operate now? No, not really.

[Poruku]

I just wanted to add my grain of salt, you don't need to be an eventmin to run events. Just creativity and effort, and money :^). So if you want more public events, have you considered creating a story yourself, getting people involved? Hiring mercenaries to do x task, creating a villain, having intrigue with a unique character or a strange situation that requires solving where you play a narrator. You can also play a bootleg group of people and have people do combat rolls instead of mechanical combat.

With the right amount of creativity you can get a lot of things moving in the world of sl2 without relying on eventmins, is all I have to say.

[Hanzo]

     Hey hey bois - I didn't want to comment originally, but since everyone else did, I do figure I should say a bit.

-

     On the note of public events, they are something I deliberately avoid. Though most have already said the downsides that come with hosting those, I make them not for the mentioned downsides, but the upsides of their 'opposite'. As Drez said: "Hanzo for all his flaws mechanically, as I did not feel it was in the best interest of the event he ran with the Sun Temple to alter the mechanics as he did so. Is a very strong narrative writer, and has quality dialogue. He seems to want to give everyone indepth experiences that may exceed the production budget and time he's allotted but he is eager, and that counts for something." What I consider being one of the most important parts of an event, is making sure everyone gets a certain dose of personal attention. Having helped Fern in the very last Falcon event, I do recall needing to "herd" players off to the main zones - picking stragglers. They are impossible to run otherwise, and for the before reason I do not wish to give away the amount of 'flow control' and 'person-to-person' factor you'd have in smaller/group events.

-

     Had I to compare how it feels to run a group event as opposed to a public one, it would be comparing a nice family dinner to a high-school mess hall during chow time - where you alone need to make sure nobody leaves breadcrumbs on the table mat. The other part of the first post, about nobody doing anything (except for the friends, of course) - I won't comment on. Though, that said, we do need A LOT more GMs, since the current team is - obviously - failing to notice our rampant nepotism.

- 

     Going ahead, and this is not my opinion alone, there is no self-gain in eventing whatsoever. It is a misconception by people who have a wrong idea of how the whole process goes. The train ticked to being called "staff" leads to a nicely colored wagon that smells of cat piss inside. It is a self-sacrificial position - just like being a GM is. Aqua mentioned that people doing nothing is a waste of 'resources' - yet I've yet to experience any of the mentioned. What has an eventmin, that a normal player does not? Simply the tools to assist others. Was I for instance, not an eventmin, I could still make the entire event myself, and get an eventmin to assist should I require such. I would get to do the event on a persistent character, reap whatever rewards are in store for that AND keep the map. To top that off, I would do so at my leisure, without an event quota over my head - or managing public perception of what I do. What does an eventmin get? A thanks, perhaps.
-
     Still, each and every person on the team knows and has accepted that. During the Sun Temple event - received in a mixed manner as it was - Balthie, Hoot and DRuby have spent a total of 15 hours over two sessions on the RP alone. They didn't need to do that. Hoot needed to improvise the whole time, DRuby made a batch of (very much acclaimed) characters on the spot, and Balthie both cashed out two floors, and was sick - yet still attended.
-
     What am I not seeing? Where is the self gain? I held not a knife to their throats, and demanded assistance. None of them were indebted to me either, and could have all simply said: "Sorry - too busy." Indeed, I haven't ever seen someone refuse assistance to another. What more, many times have people came to help despite such being inconvenient. That is not the behavior of someone in their place for the pink name. That is a show of commitment and dedication. Perhaps - with all that in mind - it is not too much to ask that we be approached when one has a desire to engage in a story? Likewise, and should you do so, know that we will do much to expand on your idea - and not be "given an event to run", as someone in this thread proposed.
-
     Now, I don't want to sound salty or confrontational - though I may come across as such, due to tackling the two specific points above - but the fact that we could use more eventmin does stand. There was a lot of complaints about the game being dead before the first generation of event runners rolled out. The tools are steadily improving, so perhaps the solutions is simply adding more people, and providing housing? If the starving man has not been fed yet, perhaps he simply needs more to eat from?

[Fuzzi]

So Poruku and Balor touch on something I think needs more of the spotlight, or at least to share it with the other half of this sandwich... that other half being the elephant of, 'eventmins don't get paid, often require an investment of passion at least, and of donation items at peaks, with a lot of time put before them even for simple event creation.' To which I turn to the thing I believe needs a spotlight. And please bear in mind, this is an outside view-- me as a relative newcomer, and as someone looking to dip their feet deeper into the community...

Does the submissions subforum not stand to benefit from subforums? Especially with this coming to light, it seems like there are some unanswered demands. A little more organization may help streamline the submissions, making them easier to read for both eventmins and creators alike. It might make it a little easier for both parties to reach one another too.

Hanzo identifies that eventmins aren't about to be handed a full event, and they're right. But if we streamline the means through which the community may submit, or the eventmins may procure content of any medium, perhaps it'll help to take some of the burden off their plate, and it'll identify where the demand is, or where shortages crop up, whatever else. It'll also better showcase the works.

This is all off the assumption that eventmins work for free, that the community knows that and would also acknowledge they're working for free. Plus credit where due. Also Dev's blessing on the forum changes. Also if anyone thinks this would actually help at all.

EDIT this may want to come with a gentle push toward the community via login message that there is, in fact, a broader demand for content submission. There may just be a lot of players who don't know.

[WaifuApple]

The submission forum as it stands is more for official things. For maps, sprites, and other such things that are meant to be used specifically by Dev - it's not really, nor has it ever been, a submission area for Eventmins. Now, they could totally have their own section, but I don't think it would really be the big change you'd hope it would be for eventmins.

Eventmins can get by in terms of submissions, things like sprites and stuff. There is plenty to find out there, after all - the more alarming things to take issue with are the number of eventmins seeming to equate to supply not meeting demand, whether that's in numbers of events, or not enough eventmins with the mindset for certain types of events that are currently desired (This numbers issue, after recent events, has only got more alarming)

And, of course, the financial requirements of being an eventmin. While you could do the job without paying for it, you'd be limited in locations and have no place to contain your narrative without it being assured that somewhere down the line at least $5 was paid for a house to put it in.

For bigger events, the cost racks up. Even if not from the eventmin's pocket, someone has to pay to make events viable.

More eventmins, and less financial requirement for event spaces, and it's a much more hospitable role.

[Shujin]

First of all. Anything I say is most certainly not an attack to anyone, I have been running "missions" and mini campaigns in my life more than I can count for other games. I know just how hard it gets, and how much harder it gets the more people you get in. Why I fully understand why Public events are on a shortcoming and wouldn't blame any of the eventmins to cater to their own individual group. It sucks for the rest, but it makes perfect sense, cause they are engaged with the characters there and the people and can therefore hand tailor events way better towards that group with subjects they know they enjoy instead of shooting in the blue in public.
Miller does point out a lot of the problems with it, as some others do. And Hanzo does explain the major boon it can have to specifically cater to a small group as an eventmin. Its also a lot more fun.

I have talked with a bunch of people about events before and there is also the other side, which does dampen motivation of GMs:

How the Players act during an Event. Even in small groups many of the players we have actually do not have the experience to be smith of their own adventure.
What do I mean by that?
SL2 has a very specific and stiff mindset when it comes to RP. People wait passively for something to happen. And even when you run an event for them, they end up not actually knowing what CAN do. Without mentioning names, I have talked to a frustrated SL2 eventmin before, who was disapointed in their group they ran events for, because their standard answer to everything was "I smash it with my sword." while at the same time they tunnelvision the objective missing the whole opportunity an event actually gives you as a player. Unique interactions with your fellow mates! 

This is a callout to players to encourage them to interact more actively with an event, if its a small group one. Interact with your friends, RP and enjoy the ride. The journey is the goal here, not the end. It is very frustrating as a good GM to work out all these fun things and stories and moments, just to see the group beeline like zombies that barely even say a word to each other.
Players are just as responsible as Eventmins to make events good and enjoyable. To me when I ran stuff the best moments I had was to throw people into awkward situations they usually weren't in and see them react and bond over it. Or to see themselves put themself knowingly into those situations where I had to adjust. It actually feels like playing with each other that way, and not just shooting for a narrative end which just leaves you wanting for another event cause the last one didn't scratch the itch well enough.
Good GMs love seeing that. Stuff like that is obviously only really possible with smaller groups, but be creative and challange your GM/eventmin to adapt with unexpected ideas you come up with. Or entertain them with good character moments. An eventmin is mostly just there to give you a setting and throw you a redline that vaguely shows the way. Do not expect them to do all the writing work for you as well. No eventmin will be mad at you for RPing some more with one another. That doesn't mean you have to write walls.

I understand though why people do this alot. They are just not used to having this sort of creative freedom to actually evolve the story because SL2 RP is usually very casual. Events, depending on the type can be alot different than that. And the possibilties can overhelm one, but form personal experience I can say that Jupiter and Hanzo for example are very great for this sort of thing. I haven't interact much with the other eventmins since they are in the position yet, so I can't say much about them and their take on this. But I assume they as well would enjoy it more when people just have a goot time evovling their own little stories in their little crafted settings. Again, good events come from both sides.>


THAT OUT OF THE WAY. I would like to throw some ideas/pointers that used to help me a bit when I ran events for a game that had a few hundred people in it, and the only way I personally found it manageable (We had alot more GMs though than 5 too) Take what you like from it, just trying to help.

Newsletter of the World
Jupiter said it a lot, but this is actually a very good tool to keep people that aren't in, still engaged.

this reminds me of a small thingy someone of the eventmins did, no idea who. But that was nice:
A small bulletin board infront of the Arena posting results of something. Neat way to show an active worlds. Only critique I had about that, there was no real link or anything that directed me towards what it was referring to, so even though it existed as someone who wasn't active for years I still had no clue what it was about. Otherwise? Stuff like that is very nice, forum can obviously also be used to it.

More Coordinated works within the Eventmins

This one is a bit tricky for SL2 given its mindset, and a bit biased towards the way we handled it back then but...Consider splitting your efforts in different areas.
meaning actually areas. Like some work on Alstalsia only events, some on Sigrogana only. OR simply some focus on social events and others on combat events.
Each GM has their own set of RP they feel very comfortable with, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with not being able to handle certain types for narratives. Do not force yourself to write a horror event, when you yourself are actually not into Horror, for example. Actual Horror fans will not enjoy is, you won't enjoy writing it cause you have no idea what you are doing and it ends up awkward or "okay" at best. Doesn't mean you shouldn't test yourself as eventmin. Failed events are still good experience.

This gives you a good overview of what your team is actually missing and needs a fill-in on. Also enables you to maybe breath more life in other parts of the world. I think the game really lacks stories outside of Sigrogana. Having the split the work between each other means that if one area is played the person gets a better feel of the canon of that place in gets the creative juices floating a bit

It also can be used to split narrative strings for big events, to have people do other stuff separately so there can be put more care of individual posts.

Eventmins in different timezones 
This one is actually important. I have heard so often that people simply can not participate in events because of timezone issues. We have a diverse playerbase in terms of where they are actually from. This needs a bit of data collection to see how many exactly from which parts of the world, but its really needed to have eventmins to theoretically as a whole to be able to run events 24/7 (like all of them together, in theory. I do not actually expect more events than one bi-weekly to a month.)

A Quest-board!
This is similar to the newsletter but its more about an eventmin announcing their attention to run a narrative and inviting people to sign up for it. I know a few have done this already, but I don't think its the norm yet? It really should be though.

To keep it fair, keep track of the people applying for it, so you do not end up giving the same number of people all the events while others run dry. Also ideally announce it in game ICly if possible. There are actually alot of people we have that play that do not have a forum account or even are in the discord. I know a bit of their fault, but doesn't hurt to have it mentioned ICly anyway. Plus points if you can actually have a physical item in the world that advertises it like that bulletin board *chef-kiss*

This can also be used between Eventmins and GMs to set some baseline events, that someone can pick up if they feel qualified for it, when someone asks. So not just for players.


Otherwise, public events are possible with very minor management if its social events. But in all honesty? You don't need to be an eventmin to run those. Its just a question of your audience and what you all expect from an event. 
It those cases you can usually do with minor narrating, housing narrating helps a lot in those and is technically all you need. So if you are carving for Public social events, there is little need to wait for an Eventmin to do it for you.

THOUGH something thats also important for the players? Do not expect stuff to always be handed to you. You need to reach out to eventmins too, with ideas. I know I read earlier about the fear of being ignored but well...Can't be helped? At least you can say then that you tried, you could do what I used to do and just do a lowbudget version of the event yourself then. Not the best outcome but certainly possible unless you want something fancy that for some reason needs the actual event tools. 



Endword
Not much else I can really say about this. Eventmining needs a certain passion and needs the eventmin to be engaged in someway to get them motivated too, its a not really thankful job either and we have a certain vocal minority that is really taking the air of the sails of many by being always negative about everything and being the usual "nay-sayers" and naggers. Don't let yourself be discourgaed by those, usually, you perceive them as the vast majority of people simply cause they are the loundest about it, while at the same time never really come out to say what they actually want.

So at all the aspiring Eventmins, give it a few shots, without actual tools and see if it's for you. That stuff gets difficult fast and stressful. You need a certain head to pull it off consistently, especially at high quality. But you never know unless you actually try. And with a bit of creativity, you do rarely need event tools even. And if you really do? Its alot easier to approach an eventmin with something already worked out for them to help with rather for them to handle the whole thing.