[Tanasinn]

Here's my complaints over the evade changes:

Attacks take much longer to finish. When you attack with anything with on-hits, there's a noticeable delay between every damage instance that makes attacks take a good deal longer, same with most AoE's. Further, if you're using twin dancing and an enemy dies on the first swing, the second swing never happens, so you can never get the momentum from both hits, which can mess up any rogue doing pve pretty badly in terms of momentum economy.

There's more server lag in general, which kind of sucks if you're doing anything but idling somewhere RPing.

That's it, that's my contribution.

[Fern]

Yeah I can see how its not fun to play with or against. Even if the balance is 'fair'

Maybe just:
-Remove full evasion
-Keep two rolls, however change how it works:
    -1st roll If hit=No second roll, you hit.
    -1st roll a miss, second roll a hit= Old system 30%DR
    -2misses 50 or 60% DR
-Effect still apply, maybe at reduced rate at two misses
-Change how Evasion ignoreing skills work, in the way that they get a garunteed 2ed roll hit. (so max damage reduction is 30% on those)

*shrug* obviously still needs to revisit the actual hit versus evade numbers but this way hit chance is "true" and only really high dodgers get the second (Since its the same probability thing we have right now only backwards) dodge as a extra.

I think that be still an improvement to the old system, while not being as opressive and one sided as the current.

This is one of the propositions I like most. I'd propose somewhat different numbers (with a few additions that I envision could accompany it) though:
 
-I think the second miss should instead be 70% reduction on dodge.
-If the 1st roll is a miss and you are attempting a status infliction, your status infliction is cut in half for that check. (I.E, 180 infliction is treated as 90. Keep in mind this still goes against the status resist of the target- so that's not as high as it seems even if they only have FAI/SAN from APT!)
-Basic attacks are no longer able to Glancing. (Personally I think they should've never been able to, to begin with tbh)
-DEF/RES are back up to full point effectiveness from before, +1 per scaled, not 0.9.
-CEL should give 2.5 evade per 1 scaled instead of 2 if all Hit/Evade numbers currently in-game are kept as they are.
-Revert Blind to how it functioned previously.
 
I believe that this way, dodge retains its nature of "high risk high reward" since you're constantly playing with the dice when people are trying to hit you and will still have a major advantage when they've completely forgotten hit rate, but not to the point that you absolutely invalidate their build's usefulness, keeping the gameplay more entertaining for both ends.
 
The reason I suggest 70% DR on 2nd Miss accompanied by DEF/RES being brought back up to 1 per scaled is because I'm certain people would still focus on hit rate stacking as they do in live because there's usually no reason to worry about tanks. The 0.9 per point change, accompanied by the Weapon Scaling increases, has made them pretty squishy to the point usually only a Black Knight or Ghost tank is considered threatening. There's no need to worry about something you can just magic burst or blow up in a few crits nearly as fast as you would a dodge character. You would imagine hyper-focusing on hit stacking would cripple your damage against ""tank"" characters, but due to the 0.9 DEF/RES changes being accompanied by the Weapon Scaling ones, you can consistently hit people very hard don't really have to fear that potential downside unless it's SPECIFICALLY a Black Knight or Ghost. So you don't really lose anything that truly matters for doing this, in a lot of cases. Which I figure is another part of why most people are only really doing hit stacking builds.
 
So, by making both defensive archetypes very threatening in a simultaneous manner, I feel that we wouldn't have to deal with the loop cycle of "this defensive archetype is still much better than the other" because there'd be big reasons to worry about both sides of the spectrum, while also enabling more build diversity since you don't have to worry about your character being entirely useless if you don't stack massive amounts of hit rate. Sure, you'll be at disadvantage, but not "nothing I do matters" levels of disadvantage.
 
This means people would be able to build no SKI, high reduction doomwalls once again. But keep in mind that, in this context, for doing so they lose out on a lot of damage against people stacking evade, and would have very low chances at status inflictions. This means that Evade would have an advantage against people not stacking hit rate, which in my opinion is the ideal version of it rather than "they auto-win all the time." If we continue with the system as is, we'll just go back to the old dance of "one defensive type is much better than the other" and thus the core issue would've pretty much never changed. It hasn't changed.
 
Critical Hits, as a domino effect of the weapon scaling changes, have obtained more meaningful damage than before. Basic attacks would not be utterly crippled against Evade characters if they lost their ability to glancing, due to the reason that when they do score a clean hit, they will hit hard. By bringing DEF/RES back up to 1 instead of 0.9, this also means that Evade characters will not die as fast as they currently do in live due to the natural DEF/RES they'd be getting from APT. They would still have reason to fear getting hit, but it won't always be "I take 2 clean hits and I die" and it would be more like "if I take 3-5 clean hits I might die" just like before the rework.
  
Obviously, basic attacks should still be fully dodgeable. And I feel that in this context, basic attacks would be the most rewarding option (when it works) to deal against evade characters while not being the only accessible one.
 
This is not a particularly mega perfect balance, but I feel it could provide more engaging gameplay than what we have right now. If anyone has adjustment ideas for it or completely disagrees with it, or anything like that - feel free to contribute. I'm aware that this opens up the potential for dodge tanks, but I feel that if we just worry about that and never consider anything like this for that reason, we'll never go anywhere.
 
TL;DR of what I imagine this would accomplish, if it included these suggestions:
-Evade is no longer unfun to play or fight against.
-Tanking regains its identity of "safer play" while being at more risk of on hits and status inflictions, since Evade would still be capable of "dodging" those.
-Tanking characters are no longer locked to BK or Ghost in order to carry out their identity (since as it is it doesn't matter if someone has 60 scaled def or res, you're still blowing them up unless they run one of those two. So right now it's not really "safe.")
-Due to evade and tanking both being around the same levels of threatening on paper, people wouldn't feel forced to flock to one counter-play, thus giving more feeling of build freedom and diversity while also making more setups functional/making the gimmicky character setups from before the rework potentially work again. (Since the system as is encourages you to metafy your build rather than do something befitting of your character in most of the cases.)
-Evasion ignoring remains potent, but not a forced go-to, or something that would instantly invalidate Evade characters.
-Blind is no longer a broken status that's easy to abuse.
-We return to the moderate levels of Rock Paper Scissors we had before, rather than the extremist levels we got right now.
-i recover some of my sanity when preparing events
  
I tried to explain this to the best of my ability and I hope it makes sense/provides perspective. I think Shujin's suggestion is a good start.

[Shujin]

litte addon to ferns post.
Maybe also revert the Armor/Magic Armor to how it worked pre update.

I think generally damage numbers are too high at the moment.

Aside from that my only unsure point would be to tie all evade to a single stat. I rather have the numbers generally readressed across the board but its something.

[WaifuApple]

Personally, I also think damage numbers are too high, it feels kinda crazy in that regard. But I don't know how much power we should lend back to tanks. Preferably one or the other in terms of defense reversion or swapping armor back, rather than both. Or maybe the need to be worried about hit more than usual is enough on it's own.

Personally, I don't know there.

[Snake]

-I think the second miss should instead be 70% reduction on dodge.
>> So swapping Full Evasion with what Glancing Blow is (70-60% DR + Ignore all inflictions/skill effects)? I'd be down to at the very least test this.

-If the 1st roll is a miss and you are attempting a status infliction, your status infliction is cut in half for that check. (I.E, 180 infliction is treated as 90. Keep in mind this still goes against the status resist of the target- so that's not as high as it seems even if they only have FAI/SAN from APT!)
>> So Glancing Blows now only halve Status Infliction? I'd chime in and say they should reduce damage by 20% alongside that. I'd be down to at the very least test this.

-Basic attacks are no longer able to Glancing.
>> Yeh. It's not like basic hits have also to go through a critical check to even do any significant damage too, lol.

-DEF/RES are back up to full point effectiveness from before, +1 per scaled, not 0.9.
>> Yes. Either that, or make Heavy/Light Armors have some forms of damage reduction tied to them as I've spoke in another thread. 10% passive DR for Heavy, 5% passive DR for Light.

-CEL should give 2.5 evade per 1 scaled instead of 2 if all Hit/Evade numbers currently in-game are kept as they are.
>> I'd go for that to see what goes. I'm really down to either see 2.5 on CEL, or give LUC the 0.5 Evade that CEL would gain as a not so popular opinion.

-Revert Blind to how it functioned previously.
>> *SLAPS TABLE* Together we ride, brotherman. This particular change was awful and shoehorns everyone into going Kaelensia or bust. An insufferable amount of Kael chars have appeared out of blue thanks to this and how idiotic Fallenharn is. The only revert I wouldn't mind to be a hypocrite about with a mouthful. I had in sane mind that 'oh its not that bad, we can counter this with Kaminah Rob--'

"No. What? This should only rename Blind, lol. The effect doesn't change."

'...weh? But.'

"No."

So yeah. Of course it needs to be changed to be made less overbearing, for heaven's sake.

And there you have it. But again, as I commented before, we'd need Dev to be compliant for a review on the recent update about this seemingly not-so-okay results we've been getting after testing everything in public, hopefully without needing to rollback to the stone age, or rollback at all.

[Fern]

As an elaboration on why I think the halved status infliction is more meaningful than it sounds, using 180 infliction as an example versus an Imperialist with 49 APT...

Glancing Blow would halve that 180, turning it into 90. The 49 APT Imperialist has 24% base status resist, not accounting for inks and other sources. (8 FAI 8 SAN)

Which means that chance to inflict would be roughly 66%.

Which I feel adds onto dodge being "high risk high reward" since you're still playing with dice at that point and there's a genuine chance of not getting inflicted because you dodged the attack, even if you didn't invest FAI or SAN and only have the bonuses from APT (which nearly every character does.)

Building a tank under the context of those proposed adjustments would mean that you normally don't have to play with the dice and are generally "safe", but have to put up with guaranteed status inflictions/on hits which can be pretty detrimental in some circumstances.

Mostly just providing examples as to why I think this is worth trying out - there's also the part where it's more rewarding to invest SAN on dodge builds with this. Since traditionally, you'd normally only see SAN in non-dodge builds.

[Balor]

Yeah I can see how its not fun to play with or against. Even if the balance is 'fair'

Maybe just:
-Remove full evasion
-Keep two rolls, however change how it works:
    -1st roll If hit=No second roll, you hit.
    -1st roll a miss, second roll a hit= Old system 30%DR
    -2misses 50 or 60% DR
-Effect still apply, maybe at reduced rate at two misses
-Change how Evasion ignoreing skills work, in the way that they get a garunteed 2ed roll hit. (so max damage reduction is 30% on those)

*shrug* obviously still needs to revisit the actual hit versus evade numbers but this way hit chance is "true" and only really high dodgers get the second (Since its the same probability thing we have right now only backwards) dodge as a extra.

I think that be still an improvement to the old system, while not being as opressive and one sided as the current.

This is one of the propositions I like most. I'd propose somewhat different numbers (with a few additions that I envision could accompany it) though:
 
-I think the second miss should instead be 70% reduction on dodge.
-If the 1st roll is a miss and you are attempting a status infliction, your status infliction is cut in half for that check. (I.E, 180 infliction is treated as 90. Keep in mind this still goes against the status resist of the target- so that's not as high as it seems even if they only have FAI/SAN from APT!)
-Basic attacks are no longer able to Glancing. (Personally I think they should've never been able to, to begin with tbh)
-DEF/RES are back up to full point effectiveness from before, +1 per scaled, not 0.9.
-CEL should give 2.5 evade per 1 scaled instead of 2 if all Hit/Evade numbers currently in-game are kept as they are.
-Revert Blind to how it functioned previously.
 
I believe that this way, dodge retains its nature of "high risk high reward" since you're constantly playing with the dice when people are trying to hit you and will still have a major advantage when they've completely forgotten hit rate, but not to the point that you absolutely invalidate their build's usefulness, keeping the gameplay more entertaining for both ends.
 
The reason I suggest 70% DR on 2nd Miss accompanied by DEF/RES being brought back up to 1 per scaled is because I'm certain people would still focus on hit rate stacking as they do in live because there's usually no reason to worry about tanks. The 0.9 per point change, accompanied by the Weapon Scaling increases, has made them pretty squishy to the point usually only a Black Knight or Ghost tank is considered threatening. There's no need to worry about something you can just magic burst or blow up in a few crits nearly as fast as you would a dodge character. You would imagine hyper-focusing on hit stacking would cripple your damage against ""tank"" characters, but due to the 0.9 DEF/RES changes being accompanied by the Weapon Scaling ones, you can consistently hit people very hard don't really have to fear that potential downside unless it's SPECIFICALLY a Black Knight or Ghost. So you don't really lose anything that truly matters for doing this, in a lot of cases. Which I figure is another part of why most people are only really doing hit stacking builds.
 
So, by making both defensive archetypes very threatening in a simultaneous manner, I feel that we wouldn't have to deal with the loop cycle of "this defensive archetype is still much better than the other" because there'd be big reasons to worry about both sides of the spectrum, while also enabling more build diversity since you don't have to worry about your character being entirely useless if you don't stack massive amounts of hit rate. Sure, you'll be at disadvantage, but not "nothing I do matters" levels of disadvantage.
 
This means people would be able to build no SKI, high reduction doomwalls once again. But keep in mind that, in this context, for doing so they lose out on a lot of damage against people stacking evade, and would have very low chances at status inflictions. This means that Evade would have an advantage against people not stacking hit rate, which in my opinion is the ideal version of it rather than "they auto-win all the time." If we continue with the system as is, we'll just go back to the old dance of "one defensive type is much better than the other" and thus the core issue would've pretty much never changed. It hasn't changed.
 
Critical Hits, as a domino effect of the weapon scaling changes, have obtained more meaningful damage than before. Basic attacks would not be utterly crippled against Evade characters if they lost their ability to glancing, due to the reason that when they do score a clean hit, they will hit hard. By bringing DEF/RES back up to 1 instead of 0.9, this also means that Evade characters will not die as fast as they currently do in live due to the natural DEF/RES they'd be getting from APT. They would still have reason to fear getting hit, but it won't always be "I take 2 clean hits and I die" and it would be more like "if I take 3-5 clean hits I might die" just like before the rework.
  
Obviously, basic attacks should still be fully dodgeable. And I feel that in this context, basic attacks would be the most rewarding option (when it works) to deal against evade characters while not being the only accessible one.
 
This is not a particularly mega perfect balance, but I feel it could provide more engaging gameplay than what we have right now. If anyone has adjustment ideas for it or completely disagrees with it, or anything like that - feel free to contribute. I'm aware that this opens up the potential for dodge tanks, but I feel that if we just worry about that and never consider anything like this for that reason, we'll never go anywhere.
 
TL;DR of what I imagine this would accomplish, if it included these suggestions:
-Evade is no longer unfun to play or fight against.
-Tanking regains its identity of "safer play" while being at more risk of on hits and status inflictions, since Evade would still be capable of "dodging" those.
-Tanking characters are no longer locked to BK or Ghost in order to carry out their identity (since as it is it doesn't matter if someone has 60 scaled def or res, you're still blowing them up unless they run one of those two. So right now it's not really "safe.")
-Due to evade and tanking both being around the same levels of threatening on paper, people wouldn't feel forced to flock to one counter-play, thus giving more feeling of build freedom and diversity while also making more setups functional/making the gimmicky character setups from before the rework potentially work again. (Since the system as is encourages you to metafy your build rather than do something befitting of your character in most of the cases.)
-Evasion ignoring remains potent, but not a forced go-to, or something that would instantly invalidate Evade characters.
-Blind is no longer a broken status that's easy to abuse.
-We return to the moderate levels of Rock Paper Scissors we had before, rather than the extremist levels we got right now.
-i recover some of my sanity when preparing events
  
I tried to explain this to the best of my ability and I hope it makes sense/provides perspective. I think Shujin's suggestion is a good start.

So I would like to say I agree with reverting Evasion back to the DR systems and removing the glancing chance from basic hits. 

However I would not buffer evasion further up, as at current while it is easy to hit people.  It isn't easy for everyone, most basic attackers are running at one another if they're just build for the typical player experience and aren't going for hit gouge.  Which was still a problem in previous patches as many builds could reach 350% hit prior to GR2.  The equivalent experience is true now due to bonuses, but has been made more popular as people seek to duck evasion procs ENTIRELY. 

My suggestion would be to reduce blessed bonuse to a 20 hit cap.  I've also found that the most infuriating instances of current PVP has been getting hit with level 50 magnetize and other evade debuffs which only serve to put you in a position where you can't properly express your build as an evasion.  Turning fights into pseudo damage races. 

So put a cap on debuffs the same way we have caps on evade buffs.  Meaning that both could serve to level one another out. 

We don't need to buff evasion, as it would only further skew the need for hit to higher numbers. 

TANGENT ON DAMA-HEY: 

I think damage wise builds are fine, however with guile buffs and such we have seen VA's Rogue, etc become more prevalent in the meta. The damage output of other builds have been more or less the same.  A bit higher than before but nothing unexpected given tank nerfs. 

However VA and Rogue has always been good at deleting tanks, and other builds. They've just gotten better at it, and are now incredibly popular in the public PVP scene at the arena.  Due to the scaling buffs and the reduction of raw stat tanking.  

I am unsure how we would address that, but one could reduce the overall crit mod amp of VA down to 20 or 15% and reduce their armor reduction passive down to half of what it currently is and see what happens.

[Snake]

Just a short chime on the add-on, but the counterplay to VA and its damage is critical evade. You can likely wall a VA of their toys if you're a specific spread or use Boneheart, or just be a Lich. That's why they're so successful. Non-BK tanks tend to lack C.E and thus the VA just exploits that fact alone.

[InsainArcaneBirdbrain]

Just a short chime on the add-on, but the counterplay to VA and its damage is critical evade. You can likely wall a VA of their toys if you're a specific spread or use Boneheart, or just be a Lich. That's why they're so successful. Non-BK tanks tend to lack C.E and thus the VA just exploits that fact alone.

Nah, only liches really gives them headaches at the present moment. This is because VA's have a wonderful little tool called Veil Off which completely shits on whatever amount of crit eva someone built. After a North Wind and a Veil Off, that VA's got well over 200 crit chance. Building more than 100 crit eva for anyone besides BK is a tall order, and a huge stat investment that they probably won't see returns on due to the insane levels of crit VAs can reach if they so desire it.

[Snake]

Oh right. We don't have Critical Evade-oriented combat buffs. That's problematic.