[Clockworkers Doll]

I. I don't think this was a necessary addition to the update. I don't really see a usefulness to this feature, besides not having to trade someone so they can see what your equipment's stats are.
I also know of several people who've also not seen a purpose for this update, and there is a glaring issue that I and most people I've spoken too saw.

People are going to metagame with this.
Referring back to this post; http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1850 As this falls under slight of the same kinda topic.
People can go to see what weapon you're using, to call it that, and ignore whatever name you gave it and are RPing it as, which can easily be solved by correcting them or (if they're a lil bitch) going to a GM, but still.
The second half is with the fighting-side of the server. People are going to metagame what weapons you're using and then set up a system to void out a lot, if not all, of whatever your items do, and hit right at their weaknesses that they don't cover, which is completely unfair, and I don't even PVP.
And yes I know, you could just say in your OOC Notes tab that they're this and that for IC, but you shouldn't really have to do that, either.
So really; suggesting that it get replaced or removed if code allows.

[Ranylyn]

Dev's already made a statement about this. Here's a link, for simplicity, since it's several pages into a big discussion thread:

http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.p...p;start=60

Dev is not only implementing methods to conceal things, but has a statement anyone crying "metagame" needs to read.

[Clockworkers Doll]

This sort of example is just an argument for the system being beneficial. Metagaming goes both ways, people. If you're wearing heavy armor, then yes, you're wearing heavy armor. If you're a vampire, you're not a Felidae that can suck blood just because you have cat ears. You are a vampire. The fact that there has been no credibility for this stupidity up until now has made people overly comfortable with outright lying. Intentionally obscuring things that should be obvious to anyone who looks at you is metagaming as well. Not only that, but it's bad roleplaying. Your character is a person with an appearance, things they are wearing, things they are doing in battle, not a big grey blob of perfect concealment that only gives even the most painfully obvious details when they feel like it.

There is some leg-room for creativity, but it needs to be supported by logic, sense, and/or lore, not 'I just felt like roleplaying that I have a super impenetrable t-shirt instead'.

I believe I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but when talents and traits get reworked, there will be ways to obscure what you have equipped if you take the appropriate talent/traits (and it makes sense). I will also keep your suggestion in mind for a 'generic' output of what you can see. For the moment, it'll have to stay as is (we can consider this a 'real test' of it) but I plan to do some more Great Reckoning stuff after the next update, and that might be talents.

The fact is that what Dev said covered about half of what I said. Yes, okay sure, Dev basically banning not being able to put schoolgirl cosplay over Dragon King's Armor is a good thing, but it still leaves out the part where people're going to metagame what you've equipped to beat you. Even with the 'consealing' thing. I'd be willing to bet it'd be like Spellthief's stat hiding, so you'd still need to be able to get some skill or trait for it, which shouldn't be necessary either. And it's not like all the Black Knight skills (in example) require you to have heavy armor, but you kinda need it to get some of the bonuses so how do you really get around that? "I don't need this 405lb armor but it gives me a tiny bonus to my DEF"?

And with Saw's original post for what made Dev say "I will also keep your suggestion in mind for a 'generic' output of what you can see.". That's really still gonna be an issue. In example, if it says "X has a Handgun-type weapon" or "X has a Tome-type weapon", it's still going to allow people to change their skills and equipment to counter that as much as they can.

And to get into that "Metagaming" bit (aside from what I said earlier about sailorgirls and armor), this is pretty much what else I found within the thread, by Dev, so go ahead and correct me if I missed anything else;

If you're a vampire, you're not a Felidae that can suck blood just because you have cat ears. You are a vampire.

Not what I'm talking about. Not in the /slightest/. And more or less? Everyone who's ever read the rules know that's a stupid thing to do.

Metagaming DOES go both ways where knowing what someone's doing and doing something against it specifically because of that is metagaming, and having a sundress over massive armor is metagaming, but an equipment screen visible to everybody is absolutely not going to get you anything but even MORE screaming about metagaming. Hence why I made this as it's own seperate topic. If anything, if we want people to NOT do that;
A) Go with a creative choice and let people have some editting choices with the equipment screen. Have the choice to show just armor type, or the entire armor. Let weapons be optionally shown, or something.
B) Have the equipment screen be only seen by admins, since it'd be their domain to deal with anyways.
C) Find some other way that isn't just asking for more screaming and complaining.

[Ranylyn]

I think you missed a key point of the whole thing. Not saying I blame you, since it's not exactly the most glaringly obvious part of the post, but hear me out on this.

Call me an idealist if you must, but I'm going somewhere with this train of thought. Please read my whole post before replying. (Not singling any one person out, but I know my opinion will NOT be a popular one, and as such, I feel it's a good idea to cut people off before they retort and say "I get your concerns, I'm getting to it.&quot

For starters, let's look at the key point Dev was making:

The fact that there has been no credibility for this stupidity up until now has made people overly comfortable with outright lying. Intentionally obscuring things that should be obvious to anyone who looks at you is metagaming as well. Not only that, but it's bad roleplaying.

Now. I'll get back to this in a minute. But before I do, I'd like to address another key point: Our community.

I've been playing online games for over 10 years now. Many, MANY RPGs, I'd even say MOST I've played, let you see the gear of other players. And this is never an issue there. Why? Because people build for their build. They don't deliberately just counterbuild against specific players just to be an asshole (though some do counbterbuild against the meta specifically, which leads to a constantly evolving and shifting meta, which is a good thing) And this is even in very toxic communities. So, judging by all the cries of "metagame," we must have the worst community of all, with everyone only out to dick one another over, right?

No. Actually, I don't think that's true in the slightest. I don't even think we have the potential to be even one-tenth as malicious as a lot of those communities. I mean, when was the last time someone gave death threats over using a potion in PVP? It annoys some people, sure, but we don't ever go too far. I just think that we, as a community, developed bad habits. And while everyone sees this as a way to perpetuate that cycle of bad habits, I'm pointing out the opposite angle: If people can open their minds and see past these bad habits for what they are, it will help serve as a defense against it in the long term.

Going back to Dev's point, let's see, here... "Made people overly comfortable." "It's bad roleplaying." Yeah. In an RP Mandatory game, the RP got stale, so people ended up getting all caught up in the PVP, and trying to change it up and keep it interesting. This led to people getting too used to going "Oh, they have A, so I'll use B because I have 300 items on me," even when that made no sense from an RP standpoint. It's just what they do. It wasn't actually hurting anyone, it just kind of became the thing to do... But they're not SUPPOSED to do it.

But now...? It's harder to get away with. You can't just pump Str and be able to use just about any non gun/tome weapon just as well as the next. Gear isn't as universally interchangeable. While some builds do definitely have some options to change it up, such as Guile benefitting ALL the banditry-themed items like Pilfer Spear and Highway Axe, the new stat system will just make it that much more obvious when someone is trying to metagame. This clearly isn't something ANYONE wants to have a reputation of doing. Consider the possible BENEFITS of being able to more actively police metagamey equipment changes. Not only is metagaming against the rules, and breaking rules is punishable, but there's also social pressure to consider. Who wants to be "that guy" that no one wants to play with because they pull that crap?

Sure, there will be examples like Saw's, where some people get butthurt and cry metagame over a coincidence. BUT! And hear me out on this... you know how the new stat fruit shows a message when someone uses it, to help prevent rampant metagamey abuse? You should be able to see someone changing their equipment, as well. One simple notification to nearby players when gear is changed, in exactly the same way the fruit already works will help draw attention to people exploiting it while protecting the innocent. And if someone runs off just to change gear, that'll also be super obvious.

What I'm getting at is... while everyone else may see it as an evil to be purged, I see it as a means to an end. While I disagree with showing all the exact stats and enchantments, the fact remains that there's zero reason to not be able to tell that someone has a sword at their hip, even if you're not close enough to tell a Bloody Fang apart from a Golgorth apart from a Setsuna.

So, considering all this... why is anyone so scared to let anyone see their gear? Is everyone speaking out against this afraid of getting busted, themselves? I don't really think so. But it's a change. A big change. And any radical change will always bring about unwanted distortions, regardless of whether the change is good or bad. If it's an issue, we can always remove it entirely, later. No harm, no foul. I mean, we just spent the better part of a month in beta for massive changes. But do try to see where Dev and I are coming from in defending this system, please.

[MegaBlues]

I, for one, would rather deal with schoolgirls in heavy armor uniforms than letting people see what I have equipped.

Also still annoyed that the community's wishes weren't valued when this was brought up however long ago before the beta.

[Raigen.Convict]

Unpopular oppinion time: At this point, i've stopped trying to convince Dev to do anything once he's decided to go one way with something, once it's done there's no changing his mind so, sure, the system isn't perfect, but at this point I don't really care. I don't feel the system will ever find perfection or even a comfortable and fair meta at this point.

[Egil]

I, for one, would rather deal with schoolgirls in heavy armor uniforms than letting people see what I have equipped.

Also still annoyed that the community's wishes weren't valued when this was brought up however long ago before the beta.

This.

I am going to actively avoid PvP if the only way to be relevant is to be packing extra weapons/equipment to counter the weapons/equipment that people'll switch to in order to counter your primary weapons/equipment.

[Zakizo]

I think the idea could be passable, with a couple of changes:

1: Detailed equipment view only possible in battle. At that point there can be no switching to "hard counter," and any future way to switch in battle would likely consume momentum, and could be responded to in kind. This would ensure players remained able to check for abuse of unknown/unreported bugs, since that's been stated as a concern.

2: This part was suggested already in a way, with equipment viewed outside of battle shown only as the item's type. I'd like to add onto that with "and only if the item in question isn't considered concealable, with concealables marked as 'unknown'." This could be done either on an item-type basis (with things like tomes, daggers, and handguns considered concealable, but larger weapons like swords, axes, shotguns, etc being unconcealed), or dependent on the item's weight. If a player still believes their item should be visible despite being concealable, it could easily be placed in their description.

With all of that said, I wouldn't suggest locking anything behind a trait, talent, or stat barrier. Tucking a knife into a pocket or shoe isn't a feat of significant ingenuity. I'm not all that interested in pvp, but I can see the concerns here.

[Exxy]

Seeing little point to make a wall of text over a simple issue so I'll make this as short as possible: I'd like to say I have a similar mindset to Roxy, Blue and Egil.

I would much rather not have a mechanic that -people- can easily abuse, (adopting a PvP stand-point) you took something that people had to adjust for post-battle start to something everyone can meta prior to (and even introduced people wanting to wear false equipment sets to "fool" others). Although I'm sure there was a clear concern of all those catgirls running around in heavy armour, there were tells outside of this new system (if you moved with heavy armour on, you could hear the armor "chink" assuming you had the game sound effects on).

EDIT: Ultimately, I disagree with the entire (Equipment Tab) update although I would be willing for something like what Zakizo mentioned to take effect (using the broad terms for the Equipment tab rather than the items themselves).


To (attempt to) summarize an already shortened post, I'll post a few thoughts I had concerning it last night:

"Good intention, bad execution."

"Was kind of pissy about it. . .Although I can live with it, I rather see it go."

"inb4 can look at stats via Examine" (this one was meant to be in satire)