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Trexmaster · 07-28-2016, 11:16 PM

I'm not even sure where to begin with this subject. It's something that I think a lot of people are familiar with. I know not everyone's in total agreement, but, I think it's worth addressing.

Lately, I think GM events have been, overall, handled poorly. I've already gone over this in the past with every active GM, as I personally messaged all of them about how I felt about giving players more control in events after a few glaring examples were brought to my attention. My issue is mainly the lack of control the players have in these situations. It feels like to me that a lot of these events leave very little budge room for deviating from what the planner had in mind. I understand it's difficult to cater to a large group of people alone, but it's distressing to have your actions be rendered null and void when the GM decides whether or not you succeed or fail, despite how impossible or easy it may have been. Thus the issue of railroading.

To explain, railroading is when the events that form a scenario are all predetermined by the planner, and any and all actions by the participants are skewed to ultimately end in the result the planner wanted, no matter what. I'm sure most of you knew that, but, I wanted to make it clear, that this is what is happening. I don't think, or, rather, I'd like to think that the GMs running these events aren't knowingly doing this.

A recent example of the above was the latest Mechanation attack, which took place in an open area some distance from the Arena. After fighting swarms of Mechanations, and as the fight with the PC controlled Mechs was half-way through, all without providing any sort of pause for player reactions, the following happened:

Approximately ten seconds later, once players realized this happened:

Then, finally about another ten seconds passed for this:

To note. This was out in the open. Yeah, sure, you could argue 'oh, they clearly teleported in!'. And to that my response is the same. This was clearly powergaming, people had no chance to react or stop that from happening. My character and another attempted to bypass this, and only after making several comments over LOOC and finally in IC awaiting any sort of response from the GM on my success, I got this:

Alright, I was pretty much expecting it not to be immediately effective, but...it took about 5 minutes for me to get that, in a situation where not acting for a lengthy period of time could potentially be lethal (see: time bomb). It didn't make sense to me to keep acting while I was still waiting to see how successful I was, so, I wasn't too happy about being in limbo in such a situation, while nearly everyone else around me continued to act.

While these attempts were being made to leave, inbetween some of the players attempting to solve the bomb-puzzle presented to them, other players had attempted: throwing the bomb at the attackers, and shooting the bomb. This happened:

Both actions that could've had dire consequences ultimately did nothing (the bomb was eventually defused, so, the casing damage and timer reduction were seemingly irrelevant in end).

After roughly 30 minutes, four players managed to leave after being told to make dice rolls following their attempts.

I think a lot of us would appreciate the following:
1. Having multiple GMs managing events that are intended to be host to more than 7-8 people. This will help stop the 'stuck in limbo' issue I stated before.
2. Always give the players the chance to react to what is happening, within reason. A good rule of thumb is just about everything should offer a window for possible reactions. This does not mean you should game this by making the window impossible, while claiming it wasn't.
3. The flow of the event should not be predetermined. At most, plan for what would happen if no one did anything at all, or the most obvious reaction (see: fighting the monsters, because, well, they're monsters).
4. The event should make sense. We're forced to deal with the end result of the event, and if it defies logic, it can create plentiful issues, varying from making PCs look incompetent by no fault of their own, to creating scenarios that could not feasibly happen--thus resulting in jaded/frustrated players/characters.
5. Finally--be receptive to the criticism you receive in the aftermath of an event. Not all of it is going to be valid, not all of it is going to be bad, but people will always have something to say about it. If people aren't happy about it, don't just discard their thoughts and only pay attention to the people who liked it.

I'm aware that once it passes the 'half the server' threshold, as most public events tend to go, it'll become nigh impossible for moderators to keep everything organized if the players aren't 100% cooperating. There's sadly no easy fix for this. All you can do is plan for dealing with a large number of people, either with more GMs, less people, or careful organization. Don't create situations that demand fast reactions in a huge crowd, or ones that trap players when a GM can't respond to their actions in a timely manner.

Egil · 07-29-2016, 12:11 AM

I used to manage events for finale incarnate games (read: DBZ RP). In those sorts of games, power was determined by how active and relevant to the plot you were and you could die at any time if you were unable to defend yourself. Thus, relevant player villains could antagonize the weak and thereby give meaning to relevant player heroes. In events, this was reflected by players stepping up to the spotlight to dominate the course of an event- and by that, I mean that most players participating in the event had little to no say in the direction of the event.

That is ideal to me because it makes for less clutter and rewards those that take the reigns for themselves. This doesn't mean that everyone else is irrelevant just because they don't get to majorly affect the direct path of the event; it simply means that their actions have relevance to what they're directly dealing with (like trying to escape from a blockade), which is meaningful IC'ly and can influence the development of the characters involved.

So, to me, GM-events that have more than, say, two parties of players attending? Adopt this sort of mentality- one party has the main focus while all the other ones can do as they please- beat up barricade droids within 2-3 emotes, disarm a bomb without immense OOC effort, etc etc. It is the main party that will take up the most risks at either a high cost or a great boon. That incentivizes players willing to take the risk to try and gives a comfortable place to those that still want to attend without getting hurt or feeling that their actions are completely meaningless.

Edit: Not all events are created equal, and there are more factors than just the number of players attending, sure. This is just my brief answer to the issues of 'GM events are too linear' and 'I feel like I'm being bullshitted in these events'.

Zakizo · 07-29-2016, 03:46 AM

I haven't actually participated in most of these events myself (for concerns Trex already stated that I still feel are justified), so I can't point any fingers or make accusations, but I can definitely say that whether this is an occurring problem or not, I agree with Trex on principle. An RP with a single non-optional route is just simple story-telling. Stories are nice, but they should stay in books and lore.

When people take part in an event, they generally want to feel like they're contributing something more than just their presence. That means if someone comes up with a clever action or plan that might change the course of your event, it's better form to gracefully accept the impact it makes than pull an "I had a trump card just for this!" out of your hat just to render their effort pointless and keep things on a specific planned route. If you have a legitimate countermeasure, that's great. If you're producing countermeasures mid-event, that's not. If you achieve your plans without "forcing" their success, fantastic. Saying "this happens because it happens?" Less so.

Or for a brutally blunt summary, being a GM does not mean that nothing you do is godmodding. Maybe no one can enforce major consequences on you for doing it, but that doesn't mean you're not as guilty as any other player if you strip away the influence of the characters you're interacting with with nothing more than text, and some players may be less inclined to participate in the future.

Again, this isn't meant to be an accusation. I haven't participated in any recent events (at least not of this kind), so I don't know if this is a major issue. If it's happening, consider this my stance. If it's not, consider this constructive advice.

**Chaos** · 07-29-2016, 04:45 AM

There are only a very scant few instances in my events where I do not grant players (some) control over what happens. This section of last night's event was no exception. As a move to clarify some things which, honestly, no DM worth their salt should EVER be clarifying, this is a basic sketch of what I had (mentally) planned of that little bomb segment as a whole:

That's obviously not my full list of what I was thinking at the time, but it's enough to give people a solid idea.

Before I go any further, however, let me touch upon something:

Quote:"The mechanations here are defensively oriented, bearing towers shields. Not to mention their heavy forms.... It would take a while for them to make an opening."

Typos aside, Trex, this was in response to your character, who attempted to charge through them. Look back at the sketch I provided in the spoiler above. Notice anything that lines up here?

Not everything the players do will be able to succeed, and going into posts assuming that you'll just succeed (moreso without any big rolls) is not a good idea. Despite whatever my split-second salt with whomever I'm talking to during an event may suggest, I generally don't have an issue with trying to roll with whatever the players are going with, but not every plan is going to work.

Of course, there's the failed events (see: the first raid in the Necromancer plotline), which I've already learned from, or so I would like to believe.

As for your numbered suggestions....

1. Ideally, there would be at least two GMs for big events. However, GMs are people as well, and there are plenty of times where it's impossible to have more than one GM around. This can be solved with helpers (giving them event tools for this is not necessary in this case), though more often than not, they will likely be embroiled in something due to their presence. Currently, events are usually built with the least amount of helpers in mind on my end (see: only one GM able to preside over things)

2. This is already the case. There's also nothing stopping people from poking me if they feel like I'm trapping them in a limbo of inaction, or if they feel I'm not giving them time to react. Of course, there will be times where the background has to act on its own, but that's for another topic.

3. I apologize, but it sounds like you're telling us to do little to no planning here. You will want to clarify this, but in the meantime....

Events are made with a general idea of how it would go. We also prepare for potential things in the meantime. In fact, we can plan for a lot of potential things, which most players probably wouldn't think of. Take the undead attacks on the Arena, for instance. What if someone managed to find the Necromancer during the attack? What if someone managed to track down the Necromancer('s lair) early on? What if someone wanted to take the Necromancer's power/resources/combination thereof for themself? What if someone accidentally found the Necromancer's Lair because they wanted to find somewhere quiet to bang? Of course, odds are that the players will likely do something that either we don't plan for, or don't have the resources to immediately cover for. It would be a lie to say that we aren't usually thinking on the spot with events.

There's also a notable issue with player initiative, but again, this is something that should be discussed in its own topic, since that will inevitably be a 'fun' topic that will likely tick people off, be it for the right or wrong reasons.

4. If you looked at the spoiler near the top of this post, you would've seen that I made sure that at least most of the event's elements had reason to be there, and why I went with certain things. As for the rest of this issue, this sounds like something that should be noted in a private conversation, as it sounds rather vague to me (how, exactly, is this making PCs look 'incompetent'?), and can be better settled one-on-one.

5. ....I'm sorry, what? Did you not hear about how many times I look/ask for opinions/criticism following events? I keep my doors open for criticism, both good and bad, even if I don't end up responding to it. I have admitted several times that the bomb portion caused more trouble than it was worth, and I've already noted that I wouldn't be replicating it anytime soon, if ever. Again, I strongly suggest you clear this up with me, because I have done exactly this and you are still complaining otherwise.

I believe the overall issue you're presenting is more personal than otherwise, given the circumstances, and I would implore you to directly discuss this with me, instead of trying to make a 'GMs in general' topic that actually points out one situation that only one GM had to do with.

Lolzytripd · 07-29-2016, 06:06 AM

As a Dm, and professional Dnd nerd chaos

Quote:-To ensure that players cannot easily run out of the bomb's way, a fleet of mechanations will serve as a barrier to try and prevent escape (multiple mechanation minions have been attacking the area; if this was a planned stunt, it wouldn't be too unusual for them to roll in as a unit)
-Trying to forcefully push through the minions should be near-impossible (they are known for being not only heavy and well-suited for taking physical blows, but also know how to abuse their weight, if their knockdown gimmick is any indication)
-Removing the bomb from the scene should not be easy for the players, and to prevent potential dickery, it should take more than one or two strikes against the bomb to forcefully detonate it
-The bomb is on a timer; this is mostly to provide a necessity to deal with the bomb, and push for action if absolutely necessary, since I'm not going to actually put people on a timer (that bit would fail due to how long it can take for some people to reply, and potential AFKs)

edit: after clarity on what happpend, chaos gave plenty of chances to interact with plot, they just might not have been obvious enough

on the positive Side, everyones being civil and trying to improve on this. Gm's haven't had quite the go ahead to to make events up till recent, I'm sure with time chaos will come up with a system that works well for everyone involved in the event.

Snake · 07-29-2016, 07:37 AM

TL;DR of my simple solution: GM Events, love it or leave it. I love the railroading, because it feels like I'm participating in some interactive story. Aside from making things less stressing and more manageable.

Then small reminder, 'Event Tools' are composed by (from my observation), World Announce, Local Narration and Mob Spawning. Only.
Chaos can't do miracles or go full Dragon Universe and spawn a nuke in the middle of the event with an in-game programmed puzzle for players to disarm. Hell, we don't even have an injure system working yet.

Trying to go beyond the event's schedule just because it's a RP game and you wanna be unique isn't really 'amazing' in general, it's called being SELFISH. Imagine a situation where this major event villain boss arrives in the Arena all mighty and god-like, bringing another plot about, lets say, dinosaur invasion, then fights my overpowered hexer/cobra and loses on the first round before the 'evil villain boss' plot even begins? Coolio. *claps* Congratulations me, I just ruined the fun event one person plotted for almost a day. Where's my golden star for being unique and not following what was planned??

Also, it's not like if people were forced into playing the event anyway. If they're feeling useless or like braindead statues, and not contributing to the schedule of the event, it's not the manager's fault they're not having fun.

Nobody here is even in the position to complain about events, just for the fact they can't do better. Nor even try to do better to make something good and fun happen.

Cerrik · 07-29-2016, 11:07 AM

I am particularly fond of GM events, even if they don't go over well because of whatever varying factors. I appreciate the work put forward to making the world more evolving and less stagnant. I don't attend any event at the arena, for a personal reason of disliking the arena, but the events have created conversations for characters outside of the arena, which leads to new conversations, dialogue, and general interaction.

I like giving constructive feedback as well but I personally feel it's best to direct this to the GM in charge when you're giving feedback because most people end up posting their feedback and wanting to see how many people can group up and agree to affect the GMs next attempt. There's nothing inherently wrong with that if you do it without any ill-intent, but often a group mentality will lead to ill-intent and this was definitely best suited to a private conversation.

#HypocrisyFromCerrik, I would like to see more events outside the arena, however. That's completely personal, though...

Ranylyn · 07-29-2016, 03:08 PM

As someone who's been roleplaying for approximately half their life, (Age 13, coming up on 27 in August) I've gotta say, I understand where both sides are coming from. Despite having not been there, I've heard about the event and read every post in this thread in detail. Both sides have several equally valid points. In particular...

- In the defense of GMs, players do unfortunately have a knack of attempting to do things above and beyond what they should be capable of. For a hilarious example, check out ProJared's "The Ballista Bat" video. In a more structured campaign, with a fixed number of players, such encounters can be balanced to be difficult but feasible. However, in a game like this, where people can come and go, it's understandably impossible to do properly. Especially when you have a lot of people, having one idiot doing something catastrophically bad (such as the instance of someone trying to shoot the bomb; that could have been the end of everyone assembled!)

- In the defense of the players, every GM ever needs to be aware of one rule: EXPECT players to pull this kind of stupid crap. In a good way AND in a bad way. As stated by Memelord McGee, players ARE selfish by nature. Between needing to act in a way that accurately represents IC motivations, and the OOC desire to continue to build the character further and wanting to avoid particularly crippling consequences, the vast majority of roleplay scenarios revolve around people acting entirely in their own best interests, such as a healer prioritizing themselves over a more useful ally, or whatnot.

Having been around for SOME of Chaos's events (but not all) I can honestly say that the biggest issue seems to be more with the fact that the events generally (not always, obviously - and I didn't participate in the attempts to strike at the Necromancer directly) take place at the busiest spots in the game, such as the arena. This naturally means more traffic, which unfortunately means a gigantic clusterfuck of special little snowflakes being supreme derplords and drowning out the intelligent ones. This, by extention, naturally leads to a LOT of "well, I can't let THAT do anything, that's honestly just stupid."

So what are my suggestions to alleviate the issues addressed by both sides?

1) Inspired directly by rogue skills in D&D, I'd like to propose: Roleplay-specific stats. A new interface with points to allocate to things like "climb walls" and "safe landing." You can choose to roll against this stat directly, with the end result being that it just shows other players nearby if it was a pass or a fail. This helps by giving each character things they're specifically good at, and allows a GM to clearly see that yes, they're actually doing things within their skillset instead of attempting ass-pulls.

2) To the GMs themselves, and I do mean all of them and am not singling any one out, I'm giving this advice: If you DO want to have a more structured event full of issues to be worked through, it really can't be done in a public area like this, purely due to the nature of players. From my experience, the best way to have something like this would be in smaller rooms, one puzzle at a time. As an example, a group of wanted criminals are hiding out in a player house and have set up numerous traps to punish those who would come after them, and seeing the guards would make them flee before the puzzles could be solved, so a group of adventurers are sent in, instead.

Just my two cents. Err... two dollars and twenty-two cents, more like.

Sawrock · 07-29-2016, 11:05 PM

I just want to mention three things, myself. The amount of mechanations needed for the event that happened would be 140 (one per five feet, if they stood in a box-formation), or 280 (two per five feet, which is more likely). I don't believe it would possible to get that many mechanations from an organization that did such an event.

Second, in general for events, though, not having enough time to plan or make the event should never be an issue. Always give yourself ample time, whether as a player asking for help with making an event, or as a GM making an event. Don't announce the date for the event until you have everything ready. If you are not ready by the date, put the event due later. An event done badly at the correct time is not as good as an event done well at a later date.

Third, I dislike railroading. I have done it myself in the past, although accidentally. The vampire attack on Oniga involved a boss that wasn't likely beatable by players, and that's not fair for who participates. There is other methods of railroading, but despite the source, in general it does not have the interactivity we should expect from a roleplaying game.

Egil · 07-29-2016, 11:23 PM

The occasional most-likely-undefeatable-boss isn't a form of railroading.

Otherwise, I agree wit Sawrock.

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